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a MAIL-related concern
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Posted on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:27 pm
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the following was taken unedited from #mail chat:

[15:55] <ZiLi> hey the process was somewhat faulty, and I told about my reservations in my first reply in that thread. But I changes my mind after reviewing narrinas portfolio. So I voted for her. And became one of her supporters.
[15:56] <ZiLi> The job's duties _A_R_E_ nailed down for years. The rules to be applied are not finally.
[15:56] <lorraine> And that's fine, after you have evaluated other candidates too, who were not allowed to participate.
[15:57] <lorraine> And no Zili, not nailed down.
[15:57] <ZiLi> There were no other names on the table - not in the vote thread.
[15:57] <cshake> who was able to post in the vote thread?
[15:57] <cshake> anyone besides admins?
[15:57] <ZiLi> any admin. There's more than one around.
[15:58] <lorraine> Zili - THAT'S THE POINT. AHHHHHHHHHH
[15:58] <ZiLi> and obviously more than one that knew names of other applicants.
[15:58] <cshake> just answer this: do you think the position should have been advertised for publicly?
[15:59] <ZiLi> i wasnt aware of other ones - else I HAD posted (I have no problems with doing, if I know of)
[15:59] <ZiLi> yes i agree that it should have been advertised officially, before
[16:00] <cshake> ok. Given that, do you think that a vote that was conducted without notice to the membership at large for a BOD position is valid?
[16:00] <ZiLi> Then I would have been able to volunteer for an assistant's job. That has to wait for some time, now.
[16:02] <cshake> this isn't about you, me, or anyone else that may want or have wanted to have a position even slightly related to weaves admin, it's about the validity of what happened
[16:03] <ZiLi> The vote itself seems not have reached even some admins... Only 9 votes have come from a total of officially 18 existing admins. But exactly 9 admins did take part in the discussions - and voted.
[16:04] <cshake> if the vote as performed can be considered valid, even with your acknowledgement that it was not sufficiently advertised to the membership at large, how is that possible?
[16:05] <Dravin> ok heres another question, you say only 9 of 18 admins voted, and took part in the disscussion, what happened to the other 9?
[16:05] <cshake> ignoring the fact that "it happened, it's over", if there was a method to say that it should have been done differently, would you agree with that?
[16:10] * Amroc (Amroc@dm-24650.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #mail
[16:17] * Peach (Peach@dm-38346.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #mail
[16:18] * lorraine has quit (Ping timeout)
[16:21] <davidw> Does anyone here use a drill to coil rings?

The chat then turned entirely to power-winding.

I'm still wondering if the BOD has an answer to that question.


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Posted on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:08 pm || Last edited by sakredchao on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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[16:21] <davidw> Does anyone here use a drill to coil rings?

i use a drill to coil rings.

which question, exactly?
who was on the table? how about this thread..
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14758

what happened to the other BOD members who should have voted?
check this post:
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0#196265
maybe we should have a BOD mailling list, sent out an email when we have a vote. i remember one of the oldschoolers saying, "why didn't anyone tell me about this?".. well, i guess it's because they didn't check the site regularly enough.. we could improve how we do this part of the process.

[15:58] <cshake> just answer this: do you think the position should have been advertised for publicly?

anyone unaware that we needed a weaves admin probably isn't the person for the job. i mean, posts on TRL mention that we needed to get this straightened out.

<cshake> ok. Given that, do you think that a vote that was conducted without notice to the membership at large for a BOD position is valid?

absolutely yes. the membership can revoke our vote, but it takes some major support from the active membership. in the past we have -never- asked for applicants. we have simply nominated people, and voted on them.. sometimes we have discussed them in the middle of those 2 things.

should there be a better system?

absolutely yes. we should have had DL introduced to us before voting on him to have keys to the site. we should have had a discussion about phong before his vote went up to be articles assistant (now effectively the main articles admin, as drax has been out for awhile.). we should have never had me naming nominees behind closed doors that got approved en masse by a single vote that was never discussed beforehand. we need a better system. we need a new charter. we all know the problems with that.

i'll hit on any of these topics in greater depth, if you point out which one you're referring to.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:30 pm
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now, for some questions to the membership here at MAIL.

would -you- prefer to be the ones voting in your admins?
the first time any BOD members were voted on, over at TCB, that is how we did it. it was simply a popularity contest. i beat out LC by a vote or two.. think of how horrible that could have turned out.

do you all, as regular members, want to be more involved in the decision-making process here?
in the past, we've had some participation in various issues.. if you would like to be regularly involved, how? what vehicle would you like to use to run people over?

if we gave you a place to officially voice your concerns and opinions, would that be useful? perhaps a "member feedback on BOD/admin issues" forum..

when we first started i was always a champion of greater membership involvement. i was later convinced, mostly by cynake, that most members just want to use the website and don't really care how we manage it, as long as it works for them in an effective manner.

this site was made for the membership, not for the glorification of BOD members. we are all open to ways of improving how we do things here.

thanks for starting this thread, shake.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:30 am
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sakredchao wrote:
now, for some questions to the membership here at MAIL.

would -you- prefer to be the ones voting in your admins?


Ideally, I'd probably like to see something along the lines of the broader membership nominating people, and the actual appointment / elevation to admin reside with the existing members.

This way, the community participates, and yet the admins can over-ride in the case of a popular person who might not be good at the job in question, should that ever come to pass, so there is some control over it.

Just my $0.02

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:08 am
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I think it would be better for the voting for admins to remain up to the admins. The reason you guys are admins is because you know your stuff and it's probably best that the ones who know the most decide who else knows the most. Otherwise popularity contests occur which doesn't always result in good things.

But a complain/suggestion forum would be a good idea.


Learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness.[Ayn Rand]
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.[Ayn Rand]

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:46 am
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To be honest I think some of the other forum areas allow for member feed back as to the direction Mail is growing.

Calling for volinteers may help add a few more people to assits with some of the larger projects without the required comitment of the long term admin/moderator status. Some of the projects like reformating the weaves section can use a number of people working to make the process quicker.

admins should be active members who know how to contribute without discurageing imput from the group. I know the level of comitment and time it takes to keep things moving in the same direction can be a handfull without clearly defined rolls and responcibilities.

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:52 am
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we definitely plan to put out a call for volunteers when we transition to 3.0.
we have established a "helper" class that could easily be used to facilitate this.

everyone else, thanks for the input.. i look forward to seeing more.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:53 am
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I think it should be left up to the admins since many people come and go and while most might mean to stay actively involved, life gets in the way or whatever.

I think anyone who volunteers to help--whatever that help might be--maybe just active on the site helping people and sharing knowledge--and serves in that capacity for a while, will become known and the BOD will keep them in mind when positions become available.

It would be nice to be able to suggest someone if we choose, but I don't see how anyone couldn't send a pm to an admin and do that now.

Joined: October 02, 2003
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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:07 pm
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You'll have to forgive me for getting a good night's sleep before looking at replies here, knowing that there could be some unpleasantness and I didn't want to respond while still angry.

sakredchao wrote:
should there be a better system?

absolutely yes. we should have had DL introduced to us before voting on him to have keys to the site. we should have had a discussion about phong before his vote went up to be articles assistant (now effectively the main articles admin, as drax has been out for awhile.). we should have never had me naming nominees behind closed doors that got approved en masse by a single vote that was never discussed beforehand. we need a better system. we need a new charter. we all know the problems with that.

i'll hit on any of these topics in greater depth, if you point out which one you're referring to.


Your stats about how many people voted in this decision compared to previous appointments is entirely accurate, and I have no intention of trying to change what did just happen. Were it done differently I fully expect that the same outcome would have been reached, and I have every hope that Narrina will do this job satisfactorily.

Now then,
I think it's more of the general idea that things very similar to this have happened in the past, as you illustrate, and while there is talk about "let's fix that" it doesn't change.
When you can easily rattle off a list of things that were done wrong in your eyes that pertain to previous BOD appointees, and yet still push so heavily for this most recent vote to go through, I can't help but see some cognitive dissonance there. It appears to me that this leadership is much more focused on fixing things after complaints arise than preemptively addressing potential problems they see, and in this case not even fixing the problems, just pushing them under the rug and hoping that they don't happen again. It also appears to me (as a moderately well informed 3rd party who knows many of you personally and has been watching this site for a little over 6 years) that significant decisions regarding long-term policy have been made based primarily on what makes your individual jobs easier in the short term, instead of taking a step back and taking the slower but more thorough approach.

Quote:
anyone unaware that we needed a weaves admin probably isn't the person for the job. i mean, posts on TRL mention that we needed to get this straightened out.

I understand that everyone who is active on the boards did know about the issue, I personally knew about it just as fast as anyone else, and I discussed it with you in chat at length.
However, I take issue with that statement. In the real world, if you want to fill a job position, you make an official request for applications and choose from them. Of course it may be rigged and you only choose the people you had your eye on already, but even the most corrupt companies do this. Relying solely on nominations from existing BOD members, and only considering others if they actively seek you out hoping that it hasn't already been decided? If you're really a "Board of Directors", I'd expect you to act like it and follow some standard procedures. Otherwise it's just an "old boy's club".

Quote:
we should have never had me naming nominees behind closed doors that got approved en masse by a single vote that was never discussed beforehand.

Saying "I'm a part of this problem, I'm going to keep it up, and someone needs to fix it!" comes across as rather ... let's say "illogical" or "unhelpful".


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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:58 pm
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i believe, the one thing we can all agree on was the process as to what happened is flawed. from my understanding of this thread http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14758 the position was going to be held by lorenzo on an interim basis, until the weave policy's got figured out. and before Lorenzo stepped forward to take the reins there was discussion on a 2 current BOD member voting system to approve new weaves. so really, the way i seen it was that the issue was taken care of and any further looking for a new weave admin was put on hold until the new policy's could be put in place. and then out of the blue the first vote got posted, and inside that vote post it was brought up about other possible candidates.

Now what i think should have happened, is that vote should have been put on hold and a post should have been made in an open forum, saying that you were looking for interested party's to be the new weave admin, and also the job description and what would be expected of the person posted, with a dead line of a week or 2.

Now as for the actual selection/voting on the candidates i believe that should be handled by the current BOD. whats done is done, and can't be changed now, but i do believe the process should be looked at and corrected so something similar doesn't happen in the future. come up with some sort of guidelines for a nomination process, and voting in new BOD members. but this is just my opinion

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Posted on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:04 pm
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Leadership?!?!?!? Who said we had any leadership? Coif Cool Smiley

As for what I perceive to be your underlying concern, Shake:
Quote:
if the vote as performed can be considered valid, even with your acknowledgement that it was not sufficiently advertised to the membership at large, how is that possible?

The fact is that the charter requires no such notification for the addition of a board member, and no one's ever asked for such in the past. If the membership would like to see that change, I'm sure the BOD would be happy to accede.

As for the separate issue of how many admins took part, as Sakred himself pointed out, a BOD vote does not require a quorum. I'm extremely displeased with the participation, but nothing untoward took place...

I *am* thinking of asking the BOD to implement a policy of including abstention as an option in all future BOD votes, so we can better gauge involvement and stances...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:36 pm
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shake, i am not opposed to participating in a conversation on determining the better ways this could be done. yes, it could be better, but i'm putting my "initiating energy" into weave classification.

if someone (read: someone who does not like the current system) wanted to present a better alternative, i would happily give feedback on it, and probably a new idea or two.. but i am obviously not that passionate about initiating it.

we need an updated charter, too.. but, again, i'm not that passionate about writing the changes down.

blaise was passionate about getting us to stop whining about acceptance guidelines, so he presented his idea of what he'd like to see. it got refined, and we're probably close to a vote on it.

shake.. if you, or any of the people who are saying, "this needs to be changed" care about it enough, you can write up your ideas and present them. being a BOD member is not necessary to present an idea like this. saying, "this needs to be done...by someone else.." is just kind of funny, to me, much like it is to you..

yes, it's work. it takes time to figure out proper wording and useful way(s) of approaching the problem. there are 2 kinds of people in groups like this. there are the "i shoulds" and the "someone shoulds".. the ones who say, "i should" get their thing accomplished far more often.

i'll say it again for easy quoting. the system is flawed. it would be great to have something better. i, personally, don't care enough to write the proposal. until someone who cares enough to initiate this process gives me a proposal to reply to, i won't be working on it. until then, we have a site to run.

kim


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:21 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
shake, i am not opposed to participating in a conversation on determining the better ways this could be done. yes, it could be better, but i'm putting my "initiating energy" into weave classification.

Me too, remember how we were comparing notes a few weeks ago on our ideas for classification and method of organization on MAIL itself? I'm nearing a full working prototype, just need some more info from DL.

Quote:
shake.. if you, or any of the people who are saying, "this needs to be changed" care about it enough, you can write up your ideas and present them.

Well, it seems a few very specific things have already been brought up in this thread.

    a) I suggested in a few different wordings that open positions should be publicly announced, to allow all potentially interested people to nominate themselves in a single thread that isn't in the Admin Forum. This was echoed or at least not contradicted by a few of the other posts as well.

    b) Blaise suggested including an "abstention" option in future polls to alleviate some of the confusion that happened in this most recent election.

It seems to be the general opinion among everyone posting here that the actual decisions are entirely up to the existing BOD, and I fully agree with that, popularity contests among people who don't know the job description or the candidates well enough are barely better than picking randomly from a hat...


I'm sure more things will be suggested, but the fact is that hindsight is so much clearer than foresight, and it will always be more obvious of how to fix something that already went wrong than anticipate how it could go wrong. That said, when things do go wrong, they need to be fixed when everyone can see the issue, and not simply pushed under the rug for later, or else they will happen again.


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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:04 am
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I still don't see what went so horribly wrong. *shrug* Just sayin'.

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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:37 am
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Deirdre: The way it happened (the procedure) may have been a bit unlucky, but the result counts. And that is undoubtedly a positive one, as we finally have got a full-time admin that is allowed to decide - besides the interim one that stepped in during the hiatus (btw: Thank you for the work done, Lorenzo - and there is imho no cause to quit now. Just continue to act, until things have settled).

And as it was made public by others (I noted that only informally in chat), I am prepared to step in as (Co-)Assistant, if Nárrina needs help when doing the job. I KNOW that I am not yet able to take that burden (yes it is one), as I am simply not 'complete' enough, so I never volunteered for the job of 'THE' Weaves Admin - but I offer my help in areas I can provide it. And there are others that can/could (maybe even wished to) do as well, as I think to know...

-ZiLi-


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