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Joined: February 15, 2002
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Request from another website
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Posted on Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:26 pm
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Hello everybody. I received an email (through the articles email account) from a person starting a website:

Quote:
Hello,
I just wanted to let someone on the site know that I'm launching a new site that's a collection of different jewelry projects, www.AllFreeBeadedJewelry.com, and that I linked to the Box Chain 4 in 1 tutorial:

http://www.allfreebeadedjewelry.com/Chainmail-Making-Chain/Box-Chian-4-1-Tutorial

I would like to know if I can link like this to the site, including a photo, in the future. Or if you would be willing to allow me to post projects in full on the site - full credit will always be given to the organization, of course. It would be yet another source of traffic to your site. Once you have 2+ projects/tutorials on the site I can start a profile for your organization where you can tell everyone a little about what you do and include links to the site and any other links.

The site is still under construction, so if some things seem weird they will be fixed. Once the designing part is done the site will be more akin to our sister sites AllFreeSewing.com and FaveCrafts.com.

Please let me know, I would love to work with you further.
Thanks!
Maggie Kmiecik

--
Maggie Kmiecik, Editor
[removed email]
Prime Publishing LLC
3400 Dundee Road, Suite 340
Northbrook, IL 60062
[removed phonenumbers]


I removed direct contact info for spambot protection.

I responded thusly:

Quote:
Hi Maggie,

Thanks for your email!

I will pass this message along to our board of directors for a decision, as they will have to make the call. I'll get back with you as soon as I can.

Many thanks,

Dave


Which brings me here!

So I bring to all of you -- do we have a standing response? Other?

Thanks! Very Happy


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4066
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:30 pm
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Providing a link to the tutorial is absolutely fine. But reproducing pictures obtained from others without the copyright owners written permission is copyright infringement. Or, they could take and use their own picture of the weave.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 2785
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Location: Cambridge, ON, Canada

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Posted on Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:57 pm
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While I commend their honesty, and willingness to contact us...

I do point out that the picture they used is ripped directly from the Weave DB:
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=12

I'm not against them linking to us, but I am against them using our members content that has been downloaded and re-uploaded on their own servers.

Of note, their tutorial for Half Persian 3 in 1: http://www.allfreebeadedjewelry.com/Chainmail-Making-Chain/Half-Persian-3-in-1 has an image ripped directly from CGMaille (which I know Phong will NOT be happy about seeing)...

In fact, EVERY image they use to link, is *ahem* stolen from the original site... Likely without permission. (Letting someone know after-the-fact is not the same...)

To sum up:
This entire site seems to be a content farm... Akin to about.com etc... And anyone who is sick of seeing their Google results fill with crap from sites like that will probably feel about the same as I do about sites like that.

I want to be wrong, and I hope I am... But it feels like this email is just a vain attempt to justify theft after-the-fact...

Edited to add: It's only a matter of time before that site is crawling with ads, or worse... The owner is simply making a small attempt to gain some credible content (and thus themselves some revenue) while returning us "Some Traffic" are our form of gain from the arrangement.

MAIL has always been, and I hope will always be free... I don't support people using our content, or attempting to gain something from our content...

</rant>


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Joined: January 21, 2004
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Posted on Sun May 01, 2011 6:07 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Of note, their tutorial for Half Persian 3 in 1: http://www.allfreebeadedjewelry.com/Chainmail-Making-Chain/Half-Persian-3-in-1 has an image ripped directly from CGMaille (which I know Phong will NOT be happy about seeing)...


Indeed I'm not.

Drax, can you PM me their contact info? Thenkee.

About their request, they can link to us all they like. Hosting content requires the permission of the individual member, not MAIL. I'd be disinclined to give MAIL's ok for them posting 'our' content, and not just because I'm mad they've ganked my render.

-phong



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Sun May 01, 2011 12:20 pm
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light them on fire


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Sun May 01, 2011 1:22 pm
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Arguments have already been told, and I have not much to add. As usual: Linking is ok, but ripping (offsites storage) or deep-linking (embedded out of context into own content, so source is disguised) not. We are not even allowed to allow (or even tolerate) such, as it's our users' content, and not our own. THE USER'S CONTENT IS TABU.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 879
Submissions: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

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Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 12:30 am
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Phong, will do.

I'll respond that they are not authorized to use any pictures or content, but they can link to the website as required.

They are free to request permission from individual members, correct?

I wonder how long it will take before a cease and desist has to happen....


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 879
Submissions: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

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Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 12:41 am
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Response sent:

Quote:
Hi Maggie,

Sorry for taking awhile to get back with you. I've conferred with the M.A.I.L. board of directors.

While we appreciate the request (most people don't ask), the content of M.A.I.L is owned by our members.

We request that you remove any content of M.A.I.L. members that you have directly used without their permission (whether images, content, ripping, deep-linking, etc). Links to the M.A.I.L. website are fine, but again, not direct usage of M.A.I.L. content.

I have also passed on your contact information to the owner of cgmaille.com, one of our members, and whose work you directly used on at least one of your webpages. He should be contacting you shortly.

If I can answer any questions or concerns, please let me know and I will relay.

Thanks,


I hope I spoke correctly. I did not explicitly say that she could track down permission of our members individually.

Out of curiosity, should she secure that permission, do we have a way to track what's shared? Should we?


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 3:02 am
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i think if the author of the content wants to give it away, they can post that very bit of info in their submission. 3.0 could potentially fix this.

looks like you did perfectly, drax.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 879
Submissions: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

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Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 1:07 pm
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Cool, that's great! I think this incident highlights that such a capability (denoting sharing of info) would be rather useful.

I got a response this morning, looks like all is well:

Quote:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for getting back to me. I have already removed cgmaille's content as he has requested. Just to be clear: I CAN link back to your site as long as I don't use any photos without permission? The only content of yours that I was using was the photo and it has been taken down, but if you want me to take down the links as well, I will.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly, once I link to a tutorial is there a way I can contact the originator and ask their permisson for one picture to accompany the description. I find our readers are more likely to click back to your website if they can visualize what they're going to get.
Thanks again.
Maggie Kmiecik


My response:

Quote:
Hi Maggie,

Thanks for your understanding!

I think you have it correct -- links to the M.A.I.L. website are just fine. But anything that displays M.A.I.L. member content without actually going to the site is not okay. If you're still not sure, please give me an example webpage and I can take a look.

If you can get the permission of the originator to use their tutorials, pictures, or text, then that would be fine. Whatever way you would recognize the author and 'used with permission' would probably suffice.

All of our material (weaves, tutorials, articles, pictures, etc) should have an author or "original submitter" noted somewhere on the page. Clicking that information will take you to that person's page, and you can then Private Message the member (or email if that information is available).

Hope that helps, and again if you have any questions, please let me know,

Dave


Would it be worth posting a note somewhere on the forums that this person may be contacting members about using content? Or do you think this conversation is enough? I imagine it will actually only happen for the "basics" (boxchain, simple HP, FP, etc), so not like we're talking a sudden bombardment...

Thanks for all the input....!


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Tue May 03, 2011 8:43 pm
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iirc, david austin gave all of the submissions he put in for the basic weaves to the mailartisans account. she has contacted us and asked for permission.

what do we want to do with collective content?

i like the idea of encouraging traffic to be here... but, in my experience, the tighter you hold on to something the quicker it slips away.

i say let her (and anyone else) use any content owned by the "mailartisans" account..

this might be a good way to introduce the new creative commons options that have been discussed. we'd have to clean up that account. some of the submissions seem to be leftovers from 2.0 or other special cases.. imalittleadmin might be able to take those. some of the entries are weaves discovered by other people but the images are mine.. not really sure how to handle that.. things were chaotic back then.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4066
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Wed May 04, 2011 1:04 am
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As long as a couple of things are made crystal clear and followed:
- there is no "blanket" permission given for content coming from MAIL. Each weave has a submitter listed. That is the person permission must be obtained from, for each picture. I know it's a pain in the buttocks, but that's the way it is.
- the picture should be a clickable link back to the page on MAIL where it came from.
- permission must be obtained BEFORE use, not after.
- there should be a note under the picture that says "Used with permission" so we can avoid forum threads accusing people of theft.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2177
Submissions: 95
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

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Posted on Thu May 05, 2011 5:11 pm
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lorraine wrote:
As long as a couple of things are made crystal clear and followed:
- there is no "blanket" permission given for content coming from MAIL. Each weave has a submitter listed. That is the person permission must be obtained from, for each picture. I know it's a pain in the buttocks, but that's the way it is.
- the picture should be a clickable link back to the page on MAIL where it came from.
- permission must be obtained BEFORE use, not after.
- there should be a note under the picture that says "Used with permission" so we can avoid forum threads accusing people of theft.


I completely agree with Lorraine.


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Fri May 06, 2011 3:08 am
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lorraine wrote:
As long as a couple of things are made crystal clear and followed:
- there is no "blanket" permission given for content coming from MAIL. Each weave has a submitter listed. That is the person permission must be obtained from, for each picture. I know it's a pain in the buttocks, but that's the way it is.


i agree with most of your points, but what i am wondering about is the MAIL owned content. for standard member content, i agree that permission is required.

what about the mailartisans weaves? not the orphans that were submitted by this or that random person that are leftover from the 2.0 transfer..

the basic weaves that david austin gave to the mailartisans account.
or... does permission mean that they ask the BOD and we decide if we want to allow people on a case by case basis?

again, the basic mailartisans weaves only, not those few orphans. . they can be moved to another account easily enough.

i would give my weaves to the mailartisans account.. seeds for the future.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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