Japanese Mail Research Project
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Joined: January 27, 2010
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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:53 pm
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The book that said japanese armor was stronger and lighter was this one:

A glossary of the construction, decoration, and use of arms and armor in all countries and in all times : together with some closely related subjects

Author: Stone, George Cameron.

Publisher: Mineola, N.Y. :Dover Publications,
Pub Year: 1999
Pages: vi, 694 p. :
ISBN: 0486407268,9780486407265.


Learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness.[Ayn Rand]
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.[Ayn Rand]

Joined: March 27, 2008
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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:03 pm
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Thanks, it is already in the list (page 3, bottom line - until the first update).

Joined: February 24, 2010
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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:59 pm
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DaegonPhyn wrote:
Quote:
Did you read anything that even mentioned "show" in your reading, when police today wear body armor..is that for show??? Police were not stopping speeders they were facing armed men, the average person would not have spent the considerable amount of money these armored clothes would have cost them for show, traditional armor eventually became more for show. There are several references to chain armor in Don Cunninghams book on the subject, http://books.google.com/books?id=g5BP7DGuNFsC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=samurai+doshin&source=bl&ots=s2a4lo1fTc&sig=wJt4aRv9vuBSmlRJ129DcAhoPG4&hl=en&ei=snuHS6m-Os2ttge5k82RDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=samurai%20doshin&f=false Armored clothing was used for more than just the police, that was just 1 example of it use. Can you tell what book mentioned full suits of chain.


Well the thing is, Bottomley says that only lieutenants wore the maille suits, with each lieutenant commanding about 25 men. And they only wore it if they ever had to go to an incident. So whether it was for show or not I don't know. But he does say that only those select few had the full suits. And that link you gave only says standard police used maille for smaller guards and not full suits. The book of Bottomley's I read was: Arms and armor of the samurai : the history of weaponry in ancient Japan.

As for the metal used, one of the books I looked through said that japanese maille was stronger and lighter than european maille, which is why it could be butted rather than riveted. It did not say what material was used to make it, but I'd assume that it was steel, since iron is a fair amount heavier and it's what europe used.
Thats the reason for testing some actual links, to see if it is iron or steel so we wont be guessing anymore. I would like to find out for sure, I agree with you, from what I can see steel would explain a lot, but untill there is actual proof that at least some kusari was steel its just a guess.

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Posted on Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:09 am
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Does anyone know this site? http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/other_research_articles.html There is an article that can be downloaded on the examination of mail links.

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Posted on Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:32 am
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american samurai wrote:
Does anyone know this site? http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/other_research_articles.html There is an article that can be downloaded on the examination of mail links.
Yes, all of this articles are in my literature list (see this post).
And as far as I know, Lorenzo and I are members of this forum.

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:52 am
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american samurai wrote:
DaegonPhyn wrote:
Quote:
Did you read anything that even mentioned "show" in your reading, when police today wear body armor..is that for show??? Police were not stopping speeders they were facing armed men, the average person would not have spent the considerable amount of money these armored clothes would have cost them for show, traditional armor eventually became more for show. There are several references to chain armor in Don Cunninghams book on the subject, http://books.google.com/books?id=g5BP7DGuNFsC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=samurai+doshin&source=bl&ots=s2a4lo1fTc&sig=wJt4aRv9vuBSmlRJ129DcAhoPG4&hl=en&ei=snuHS6m-Os2ttge5k82RDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=samurai%20doshin&f=false Armored clothing was used for more than just the police, that was just 1 example of it use. Can you tell what book mentioned full suits of chain.


Well the thing is, Bottomley says that only lieutenants wore the maille suits, with each lieutenant commanding about 25 men. And they only wore it if they ever had to go to an incident. So whether it was for show or not I don't know. But he does say that only those select few had the full suits. And that link you gave only says standard police used maille for smaller guards and not full suits. The book of Bottomley's I read was: Arms and armor of the samurai : the history of weaponry in ancient Japan.

As for the metal used, one of the books I looked through said that japanese maille was stronger and lighter than european maille, which is why it could be butted rather than riveted. It did not say what material was used to make it, but I'd assume that it was steel, since iron is a fair amount heavier and it's what europe used.
Thats the reason for testing some actual links, to see if it is iron or steel so we wont be guessing anymore. I would like to find out for sure, I agree with you, from what I can see steel would explain a lot, but untill there is actual proof that at least some kusari was steel its just a guess.
This link was quite easy to open and not brittle at all.
I just posted a lot of new pics. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/samurai%20chainmail%20and%20armor%20samples/

Joined: February 24, 2010
Posts: 234
Submissions: 1

Re: Japanese Mail Research Project
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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:57 pm
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Catweazle wrote:
'Updated list' wrote:
1. What kind of methods are useful for such a research?
1.1 SEM (Catweazle may have the possibility to examine a few rings)
1.2 X-ray
1.3 carbon-dating

2. Literature (bibliographical references are as good as a link to a pdf-file)
2.1 literature about metallurgical examinations of other rings
2.2 literature about medieval iron ore mines in Japan and Europe
2.3 literature about the production of mail in Japan and Europe

3. Research Objects
3.1 Japanese mail (which will hopefully still be contributed by American Samurai)
3.2 European mail
3.3 Ore examples from iron mines (Dinwar - it was your idea and I hope you will help)
3.4 fabric of japanese armour (contributed by American Samurai)

4. Professional Partners and Sponsors
4.1 Museums
4.2 Universities
4.3 (Steel)-Companies
One more item of research would be to provide scientific evidence that the black lacquer is really just that, a test of some type could prove the actual composition of the "lacquer".

Joined: March 27, 2008
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Posted on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:03 pm
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I have updated the list with the bibliographical references: Literature

Added books:
Kyuukei, Hayakawa (1735): Tanki Yoriaku
Turnbull, S. (2008): The Samurai Swordsmen Master of War
Williams, A. (2003): The Knight and the Blast Furnance A History of the Metallurgy of Armour in the Middle Ages & the Early Modern Period

Joined: March 27, 2008
Posts: 132
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Location: Ruhrgebiet / Germany

Re: Japanese Mail Research Project
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Posted on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:06 pm
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'Updated list' wrote:
1. What kind of methods are useful for such a research?
1.1 SEM (Catweazle may have the possibility to examine a few rings)
1.2 X-ray
1.3 carbon-dating
1.4 Ring statistics (wire diameter, ring inner diameter(s))

2. Literature (bibliographical references are as good as a link to a pdf-file)
2.1 literature about metallurgical examinations of other rings
2.2 literature about medieval iron ore mines in Japan and Europe
2.3 literature about the production of mail in Japan and Europe

3. Research Objects
3.1 Japanese mail (which will hopefully still be contributed by American Samurai)
3.2 European mail
3.3 Ore examples from iron mines (Dinwar - it was your idea and I hope you will help)
3.4 fabric of japanese armour (contributed by American Samurai)
3.5 Lacquer of Japanese mail

4. Professional Partners and Sponsors
4.1 Museums
4.2 Universities
4.3 (Steel)-Companies

Joined: February 24, 2010
Posts: 234
Submissions: 1

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Posted on Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:58 am
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Catweazle wrote:
american samurai wrote:
Does anyone know this site? http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/other_research_articles.html There is an article that can be downloaded on the examination of mail links.
Yes, all of this articles are in my literature list (see this post).
And as far as I know, Lorenzo and I are members of this forum.
have you read this? "Examination of Mail Armor Links from the Metropolitan Museum of Art by J. R. Vilella" This might be helpful!

Joined: March 27, 2008
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Location: Ruhrgebiet / Germany

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Posted on Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:38 am
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I am still working on it. I've printed the articles and sorted them by the year of publication. And now I'm reading them one by one.

Joined: February 24, 2010
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Posted on Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:44 am
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Catweazle wrote:
I am still working on it. I've printed the articles and sorted them by the year of publication. And now I'm reading them one by one.
Another interesting title. "Further Research into the Construction of Mail Garments by E. Martin Burgess"

Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:21 pm
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american samurai - In the interest of starting to collect data and because you have the easy access to the Japanese maille could I make a request?

I am wondering if there is any common elements to all the different pieces you have. For example are all the Inner ring diameters and wire diameters the same? If they are not the same what is the mean, median and mode of the above measurements.

If we can find out if they used the same Inner Diameter and Wire Diameter rings on all of their round rings, no matter what pattern of construction was used, it may help us come up with some commonalities.

I understand that this could take a great deal of time and effort with all the pieces that you have, but could help us start to collect data which might bring up new questions.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

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Posted on Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:21 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
american samurai - In the interest of starting to collect data and because you have the easy access to the Japanese maille could I make a request?

I am wondering if there is any common elements to all the different pieces you have. For example are all the Inner ring diameters and wire diameters the same? If they are not the same what is the mean, median and mode of the above measurements.

If we can find out if they used the same Inner Diameter and Wire Diameter rings on all of their round rings, no matter what pattern of construction was used, it may help us come up with some commonalities.

I understand that this could take a great deal of time and effort with all the pieces that you have, but could help us start to collect data which might bring up new questions.
The rings are different sizes but I do not know about the diameter, thats a good question, what method would be the best way to measure it?

Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:30 pm
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The best way would be to get a pair of calipers to measure the rings. Digital once will cost you maybe $20 - 30 at a hardware store. You can than measure both the thickness of the wire and the inner diameter of the rings.

It would also be interesting to know if the circular rings and the oval rings are the same length if stretched out.

To me this would tell us if all the rings were made on the same mandrel and than the oval rings were "squished" or if they had one mandrel for the butted circular rings and another for the oval split rings.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

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