admin complaints, part 2
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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

admin complaints, part 2
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:42 pm
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another aspect of the recent complaints about the administrators seems to be that some of us do not follow the rules with submissions.

one example would be lorenzos recent weave submissions. they do not contain ring stats. now, lorenzo has mentioned that they are large "practice rings" that are 1" across, and he doens't see how that data would help anyone. i can see how this would be frustrating to someone who is trying to keep the library clean and orderly.

another good example is me. i don't think a single one of my gallery or weave submissions has ring stats in it, although i'm not looking at the page right now. i haven't submitted a weave since we began using that standard, but i agree we should have ring data for them. the gallery stat requirements, however, is something i voted against at the time. i continue to vote against that rule every time i submit a gallery image. yep, i'm an admin and the coding makes it so i don't have to ask permission to make this protest. i -wish- the average member could make the same protest. luckily for me, D hasn't asked me to change.

did i describe that aspect of the complaints in this arena well enough, legba? did i miss anything glaring?

personally, i think it's tricky. if i had to submit ring stats with every gallery image, people would see even less of my work that they already do.

weave images.. well, i think we should have stats, but perhaps there's a way to find volunteers in the membership to research weaves and their AR tolerances and insert that information into the library. people are asking for stuff to do.

what do people think about this?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 23, 2004
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Re: admin complaints, part 2
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:51 pm
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sakredchao wrote:


another good example is me. i don't think a single one of my gallery or weave submissions has ring stats in it, although i'm not looking at the page right now. i haven't submitted a weave since we began using that standard, but i agree we should have ring data for them. the gallery stat requirements, however, is something i voted against at the time. i continue to vote against that rule every time i submit a gallery image. yep, i'm an admin and the coding makes it so i don't have to ask permission to make this protest. i -wish- the average member could make the same protest. luckily for me, D hasn't asked me to change.



Actually, two years ago we revisited Gallery stats: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=11629

We don't require all the stats that Razz did anymore, and pretty much just ask for a decently sized clear picture and a description with a little more info than just "a necklace" or "my shirt".

Frankly, I personally don't give a hoot about descriptions. I don't care if the description is blank in all honesty; but, folks like to read a little bit about what they're taking the time to view, so a sentence or two usually suffices for me.

I think that stats are much more important in Weave submissions. At the very least they should have the closest ring sizes/ar's that the submitter can remember, if for some reason the info isn't readily available to them or they just plain forgot.

Joined: January 21, 2004
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:04 pm
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I agree with Deirdre. Gallery submissions are about showing off the art, so stats aren't critical. If the submitter wants to include them great, but it shouldn't be required.

Weave subs are inherently more technical, so they should have ring stats.

I think it would be a good long-term project for people to play around with weaves to find their min/max AR's. Certainly wouldn't move very quickly, but if people want to help out they can pick a few weaves and start fiddling.

-phong



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:46 pm
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i think the larger point here is that an admin of an area might feel that their toes were being stepped on if the rest of us do not adhere to the rules in their area.

so, are they rules, or are they data points that we would like to collect at some point?

can members submit weaves without ring-stats, if people are going to fill in the blanks?

do admins have to adhere? and if so, how do we enforce it?

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:49 pm
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Agreed, in the Gallery descriptions and ring stats are not so important but in weave submissions they are.

Mostly all there Kim except it's not just ring data. I understand that rings stats are not always accurate or helpful but there has been one recent weave submission from an admins with no description on how the weave is constructed.
This of course is not always possible with historical weave submissions (like lorenzo's Etruscan Maille) but Secret has no construction description except 'it's like this and this'.
Sorry to single you out lorenzo but I have sent 2 PMs about this and no reply.

It just seems that if the membership are expected to uphold certain standards on submissions then the admins should too.

EDIT after Kim's post above: Ring stats are tricky, at the moment it's a case of if you know them please add them to the submissions (so added later is ok). However a good description to a weave has always been in the submission guidelines, I think this is more important.

I don't think we can enforce this, we should be able to trust admins to do as good a job as possible on submissions as we expect the membership to.


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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:58 pm
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in lorenzos defense, when he was weaves admin, that's exactly the sort of thing you would submit to the weave library.

however he, nor i, are the weaves admin anymore.

as to textual information about construction... most descriptions of mailling are horrible and garbled. what sort of information would one be looking for here? if i were to go back and edit my weave submissions, i would probably enter something along the lines of:

euro/persian
AR: 4

and that's it.. is there something else i should be thinking on?

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:06 pm
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There's been much discussion about this (mostly between me and Cynake) and it was decided that because the weave submission is sometimes the only record of that weave, the description should be along the lines of how it's constructed.
So e.g. Interwoven 4in1 would be something like:

Based on a euro 4in1 'ribbon' extra rings are added to each side and 'stitched' together down the middle.

That was a c**p description from me but hopefully you see what I mean. No one needs to write an article but just a little pointer in the right direction helps a lot.

I'm not p***ed with lorenzo but some of the membership questioned the submission and I couldn't get any response about it from him.


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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:53 am
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I like to see ring stats in gallery subs if only to cut down on "what rings did you use to make that?" threads.

I have a hard time understanding why someone can't say what ring sizes they used to make a weave sub. It's in their hands, they just took a picture of it right? I could certainly be wrong but how many weave subs are something someone found in the back of a drawer, dusted off, and took a picture of? Or just found a picture laying around and submitted it? And I really like to see a description that gives me at least a clue to how it is constructed. "I was trying to make ..., but I ended up with this." "This weave is similar to ..., but here is how it's different". If their description is lacking, you could ask some questions of the submitter and prompt them to add that info in.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:51 pm
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i don't think that the description is necessary in most cases.

honestly, when i see a weave with a long description, i don't read any of it. if it was organized better (al la 3.0) i would be more likely to look at the specific information i'm interested in.

is it worth trying to think about these things in terms of 3.0? are all the fields and tags going to be required at the point of submission? if they are not all required, are we going to have people who go look at those things and figure out the blank tags?

i'm trying to think of a way to make everyone content. if we require too much info, then some people may not submit their weave because it's a lot of hassle to put it all together. would we have seen lorenzos weaves if he had to do a writeup for each one? i would rather see the weaves than not.

i'm not trying to tell anyone how to do anything, only voicing my own thoughts and opinions about this issue.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7026
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:42 pm
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Well it was hammered into me that a weave submission is often the only record of it. I have made it clear that we don't need article length descriptions but some description really is needed as often it is virtually impossible to work out the weave without one.
lorenzo has given a little description on nearly all his submissions so why not ALL of them. Even people who come up with something purely by accident can usually offer some info.
This was discussed at great length some time ago and most agreed that some description was needed and ring stats should be added if they are known.


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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:00 pm
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some of my weaves would be easy to describe, others cause me a headache when i try to think of a way to put it into words.

i see what you're saying, however.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm
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My personal opinion is, that precise stats should be required in Weaves, if AR or ring size combination sensitive entries are submitted. This is to enable others to be successful if they wish to reproduce a weave. If further hints to tutorial articles or board discussions describing the weave construction are given, is that icing on the cake. The stats problem is seen mainly in the 'unit' section, while other areas are often less sensitive ones. So this requirement can imho be somewhat loosened in these cases, while a wish to see stats of a known as working set of ring stats remains, nevertheless. It should be the job of the admin(s) to decide, if and to what degree stats are required for a submission.

For Gallery, where not always the wish of reproducibility is given, but more the 'I can do that' attitude and pride to show something nice is prevailing, I would like to apply the less harsh regimen as well. Don't forget, that even in case no precise stats were required, there would be no hindrance to publish them, anyway...

Just my 2 EuroCent Very Happy
-ZiLi-


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Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
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-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:11 pm
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lucky for you, zili! that's between you and legba to determine. i will do my best to adhere. i don't mind posting weave ARs.. gallery ARs are different, but that isn't an issue anymore.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:20 pm
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I'm just not talented enough to simply look at a picture and figure out a weave. And I would guess I am in the majority in that respect. A picture with little or no description in the gallery is one thing. But the Weaves library should be much more detailed and well documented.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:22 pm
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ZiLi I too would love to see all ring stats in weave submissions however like Kim I would hate to deny a weave submission purely because it doesn't have ring stats. Usually a polite PM requesting all info the submitter has results in enough info being added.


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