Amendments to Theme Contest Rules (Discussion)
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Joined: August 02, 2005
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Amendments to Theme Contest Rules (Discussion)
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:02 pm
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Okay, the last set of rules I can find that I posted are from contest 6. They are as follows:

- Must be 90% maille.
- Must be previously unsubmitted work.
- You are allowed as many entries as you like.
- Post them in the appropriate thread before the end of the contest.
- The contest runs for 12 weeks.


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: August 02, 2005
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:08 pm
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Now, for what I believe should be added/amended. All of these are my opinion, and everybody's ideas will be voted on.

- The piece must be made within the time frame of the contest. IE, every ring must be woven in the time period, no scraps from previous projects made outside the time limit.
- No material specific categories. No coke tab only contests, no rubber ring contests.

I also think we need to decide where coke tabs, scales, and rubber rings fall in this. Should we allow them to be the 90% maille of the project?


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:19 pm
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I agree with all of that.

I also think that although tabs scale and rubber rings should be allowed as part of a piece, they should not count as 'maille'. Otherwise we would have to allow them as material specific categories. Just my opinion on it.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: October 21, 2008
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:42 pm
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I think the definition of what is maille needs to be specific.

I would also like it stated how the 90% determination is made. by weight? area? ???

I think the 90% limit could be a bit lower. Maybe 75% or something.

Joined: December 29, 2008
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:45 pm
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By modern perception Scale is a form of Maille. I state perception, because while it might not have been termed such in original applications, we all know the term Scale Maille, just as we hear things like Ring Maille. Language evolves, what was referred to as "mail" became "chainmail" at some point to avoid confusion with other things that also began to be labelled as 'mail". Now, we've changed the spelling to avoid confusing it with postal mail. (armour or jewellry crafted from stamps and envelopes) Which we confuse for postal mail. (a system to transport corespondance and packages.) ;>

While pop tabs might be non-traditional, it's just an evolution of material and supplies. I don't think tabs or scales should be excluded specifically.

Edit: Because I took forever to post after typing.
Cindy: I'm not really sure either weight or surface area are the best determinations. Just imganing a simple earring, a single small scale as a background with a feather of nearly equal size dangled over it. It would include an earwire because it kindof has to, probably one ring, and some wrapped wire. Excluding the clasp, is it 90% because most of the weight is in the scale, 50% because of surface area, 66% because of the scale and ring components just outnumber the feather? Does the wrapped wire count? If there has to be a judgement call made for some reason, I think it should be one of common sense.

Joined: December 29, 2008
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:08 pm
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Ugh, I wanted to not run double posts but I dragged on alot, and for some reason the input box was misbehaving.

There's also the consideration that if it is determined by weight, a piece made of aluminum could reasonably have less weight in rings than the stone pendant and/or various other danglies hanging from it. That same piece done in a heavier material would count, while the aluminum wouldn't, and that seems a bit silly to me.

End devil's advocate mode.

Not trying to jump anyone specifically here, just wanted to voice what I thought could be potential issues. I don't know what a perfect system would be, I've never seen one, anywhere.

Joined: August 02, 2005
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Location: Arnett, Oklahoma

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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:11 pm
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I think that scales, coke tabs, and rubber rings are all maille. The rubber rings, however, should be done in an actual maille weave, no just foxtail or something that can't be done with regular rings.

I think the 90% maille rule is "90% of what is actually being judged". For example, you could submit a necklace with beads in the weave, and as long as it's maille with some beads, that's fine. If it's a beaded collar that has a mobius ball© on it, that doesn't count. I think the 90% maille rule is mainly there to make sure what is being submitted is an actual maille piece, not something else with a little maille thrown in.


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: January 10, 2009
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:28 pm
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Interesting. Are we judging just the maille, or the creativity and craftsmanship of the whole piece with maille as the focus?

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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:35 pm
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maybe the rule should be mostly maille. or I don't know, some better word than that. or maybe a paragraph similar to what you just wrote. I think the "intent" of the rule(of all the rules) is the important part and that needs to be clearly spelled out so everyone will understand.

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:43 pm
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DruidQueen wrote:
I think the 90% maille rule is mainly there to make sure what is being submitted is an actual maille piece, not something else with a little maille thrown in.


That would hold true at much less than 90%.

I'm happy with 60%. Just, notably more than half the project should be maille. My suggestion from the previous thread had at least a couple people in agreement.

"How about we change the % rule to 60% new maille woven within the time frame of the contest, all inclusive. If the rest is old maille or non-maille or whatever. 60% would still ensure that you could use scraps and fragments, but that the project would still have to be central to the theme and created for the theme.

And, maybe as an addition, that only the things that *are* new can be judged? Like, if you have some superb, ornate, tooled leatherwork on some bracers and a previously-existing fancy inlay, and then plain galvy framing all around it and on the inside of the wrist... only the plain galvy can get judged, you don't get to judge the non-maille or pre-maille parts of it?"

Alcomene thought 75% seemed more reasonable, I think that's a bit steep because then it starts being more that a project has to be entirely maille. It doesn't give you a lot of wiggle room to play with anything else.

Also.. theme selection rules are separate from contest rules.

...

Quote:
I also think that although tabs scale and rubber rings should be allowed as part of a piece, they should not count as 'maille'. Otherwise we would have to allow them as material specific categories.


The logic between those two sentences doesn't flow for me. Why would we have to allow them as material specific categories just because we let people make a project out of them?

I think it's pretty easy to separate them. No themes focusing on only one specific material type, ("rubber", "stainless", "colors") ... but... make your entry out of whatever you want. If that's rubber, stainless, or anything colorful, that's fine.

...

Quote:
we all know the term Scale Maille


Ick. Duck, and cover before the armorers hear you. The term "scale maille" is false on every level and invented by people who didn't know what they were talking about and used the wrong word. If that's your claim, it's weak.

However, I agree with you. I've no problem letting people make stuff out of whatever they want that constitutes a "ring". Poptabs, scales, whatever.

...

Quote:
I would also like it stated how the 90% determination is made. by weight? area? ???


A couple ideas:

1 - Between previous-existing and new maille, by ring count. The thing that matters to maillers.
2 - Between maille and non-maille (leatherwork for example), by surface area.
3 - Between maille and non-maille, by approximate hours. That means, ornate leather that took 100 hours, + cheap, big galvy that covers 80% but only took 3 hours... does not fly.

Also, I'd like to point out it's hard to measure, so a rough ballpark more generous than we'd like should be what we pick, so if it's really challengeably less than that we can rule it out. I.E. If we want 75%, pick 60%, so if it's questionably 60%.. we can rule it out and say that they should've been trying for higher.. rather than bickering over what 60% is and splitting hairs. If you want it included, make it noticeably above the cutoff mark.

...

A new entry by me.. either scrap the "must host it elsewhere" silliness, or, make entries private until voting.

I think there were only 2 reasons to host it elsewhere: 1 - So that people couldn't see it early, and be intimidated into not entering if they don't think theirs is good enough, 2 - So that it would qualify as "previously unsubmitted".

So, if we're letting people post pictures, #1 is invalidated. If we're not going to allow previously existing but unsubmitted works, then #2 is invalidated.

If we decide to scrap only the "must host it elsewhere", but don't create "make private until voting", create a new area of the Gallery titled "Current Contest entries", and have everyone pile their work into there. When the contest is over, DQ can go through the contest area and sort all the images elsewhere where they belong. (Until MAIL 3.0 anyway).

Joined: December 29, 2008
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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:03 pm
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Let the armourers bark, you missed the point, that weither or not the term is traditional, it's used, and understood as a part of todays vocabulary.

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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:27 pm
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Charon wrote:
Let the armourers bark, you missed the point, that weither or not the term is traditional, it's used, and understood as a part of todays vocabulary.


True. And it is woven in a manner consistent with methods used for European weave. (just makin' trouble here, I've never done scale maille)

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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:58 pm
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I want to second an inclusion of a revision of the percentage rule as stated by Cynake. Perhaps 75% is high, but somewhere between 60 and 70 is good, I think. I think the percentage should be for "New" maille, not for maille in general. As I stated in the submissions thread, I think that small bits of pre-made stuff that we all have lying around should be able to be used in entries, as long as they do NOT constitute most of the item.....they would be included in the non-maille section of the entry, the 30-40% allowed (if this gets voted into effect anyway).

I think that most of us, if not all of us, probably have pieces and samples of maille lying around that are just gathering dust until we decide to finish them or figure out what to do with them. These contests could give us a way to use these pieces to enhance the creativity of our entries. I have a drawer full of them and some are scattered all over my house. I see no problem with them being included in the percentage of non-maille stuff. They should not count as new maille for an entry and should not be judged. We are all pretty honest and I think we can be trusted to say, "hey, I made this handflower out of ......, but used a small celtic star that I made before this contest as a centerpiece."

Cindy's piece made it into the voting.....It was made of leftover bits of maille. It has not given her an unfair advantage over everyone else. It is a lovely piece and it's nice to see how she arranged those old pieces into something nice.

Contests should give us inspiration to create new things. If I design something that uses 1 1/2" inches of full persian and I have that much lying around....should I really have to make a new piece of it?

I do think that scale and rubber rings should be used as maille......anything that we are using in the place of a regular ring in a chainmaille pattern is fair game. I wouldn't care if someone used donuts weaved into chainmaille......it's creative and chainmaille and fits the theme, then it should be allowed.
I do agree that the rubber rings that count in the "maille" portion of the entry should be in a weave that regular rings can be used in.....ie, no foxtail.



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Posted on Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:36 am
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Perhaps instead of a fixed percentage that's difficult to define the rule could be along the lines of:

Mostly maille, over half maille or predominately maille.

My feeling is that they should be guidelines for creativity and we shouldn't be out to hunt down rulebreakers or have people scared there stuff won't even be allowed in after hours of work.
Its supposed to be fun remember.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:28 am
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AdrianHills wrote:
My feeling is that they should be guidelines for creativity and we shouldn't be out to hunt down rulebreakers or have people scared there stuff won't even be allowed in after hours of work.
Its supposed to be fun remember.

That is an excellent philosophy.


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