weaves 3.0 discussion
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weaves 3.0 discussion
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Posted on Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:52 pm
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look! i'm making a mess out of our database:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves_screen.jpg

it would be delightful to have all of those options.. the jewelry/fabric/sculpture tags are a long debate found elsewhere and i'm not attached to them.

the exclusion options sound nice for an advanced user, but may just be visual clutter for newer users.

subfamilies in the list are:

byzantine
dragon
tao/not tao
hoodoo/voodoo
hourglass
mobius balls©
vipera berus
knots (airplane, I.?)

_______________
has our database kept track of when things were submitted?

anyway, i'll be back in 7-10 days. i just wanted to get this put somewhere in the mean time.

kim

[Edited by Daemon_Lotos: Moved the pic to the server, altered the link]


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Re: weaves 3.0 discussion
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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:58 am
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sakredchao wrote:
has our database kept track of when things were submitted?


Theoretically, yes.

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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:57 am
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I like it!

The few things I might suggest are:

1) Exclude unless checked to include. That would clean up that section. It would need a

[You might get more useful results
if you checked something to search for...]


warning when someone tries to search without anything checked.

2) Position the sort list in three rows:

.....Alpha
.....AR
.....Chronological

And have a set of defaults checked off that might involve some means of remembering custom settings for each user. Is that possible without either maintaining a massive chunk of database or placing a cookie?


"Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:21 am
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HerrBGone wrote:
And have a set of defaults checked off that might involve some means of remembering custom settings for each user. Is that possible without either maintaining a massive chunk of database or placing a cookie?


In a word... No...
It requires one or the other, a cookie, or a database key... But it wouldn't take up much room...

Database is also preferable over a cookie, as it's something that would port between logins on different browser's/pc's/etc

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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:30 am
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Looks a little complicated to me. At least when I'm thinking of newbies. It needs to be user friendly and something we all forget is that noobs often aren't familiar with a lot of terms/names we use.
I realize there not a lot we can do about that but hopefully you get my point...


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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:52 pm
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Good point. To fix that, in addition to the text, we could have a photograph (or one of Phong’s renderings (nudges, Phong Wink)) to illustrate a basic example of each weave family and a graphical example of the other permutations along with the text in the Aesthetic Properties section. That could use the space freed up by eliminating the need for the [ ] Exclude button for each.

Edit to add: Maybe we should include a one-liner explaining what an AR is for those same nubies.


"Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
– Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:37 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
Looks a little complicated to me. At least when I'm thinking of newbies. It needs to be user friendly and something we all forget is that noobs often aren't familiar with a lot of terms/names we use.


Well, there's always the usual option, add an 'Advanced Search' option... And allow your 'defaults' to specify which you'd rather see...

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Posted on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:28 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
Looks a little complicated to me. At least when I'm thinking of newbies. It needs to be user friendly and something we all forget is that noobs often aren't familiar with a lot of terms/names we use.


Yeah, I've been of the same opinion. I didn't like this at all when Tess first put it together.

Both front and back ends of this I'm not a fan of, though I'm a fan of the spirit it's going after.

I know it's just a concept/prototype, but I think the front end is poor and unintuitive. It's just a bad interface, nasty and complicated even for me, and I'm at home in over-detail and thoroughness. I think the back end is a poor way of managing weaves.

Tagging weaves with attributes is certainly a start. Tagging weaves by the dimensions the expand in would be great. Tagging a Spiral/Persian hybrid weave as both Spiral and Persian would be great. Tagging a weave that has Byzantine elements in it would be good. Tagging aspects of weave construction theory would be good, knowing that a weave is Kinged, Scaled, mobiused, etc. All that is good info that is good to have at your fingertips.

Bad, is having to know and use it and fill in a form any time you want to browse the weavebase. It's so.. bureaucratic. Engineers shouldn't design interfaces Razz

Quote:
I realize there not a lot we can do about that but hopefully you get my point...


That's the headscratch. It's not good, but, what's the alternative?

How can we possibly arrange nearly 1,000 weaves in a coherent manner? How would people *want* to look through them?

I suggested at the time that alphabetical and chronological need to be central. I don't know why it matters, but to me, it just does. I despise using online phone books where I have to search for something. Ugg, I just want to see the damned paper page and maybe a whole lot of what I'm *not* looking for, alphabetically, around the item I am looking for. Searching is nice, but I hate being forced to search, sometimes I want to sort. Bugs me about Gmail too.

I think last time this came up, I said that perhaps we should pick 40 or 50 "popular" weaves, the most basic weaves (probably most of the oldest, as you have simple before complex), and present those first. Present them as families if it makes sense to do that.

I think part of why people go to sites like Phong's for tutorials, is there is just so much chaff on MAIL. Last time I mentioned something along the lines of 90% of weaves being "useless", and I think Kim pointed out, how are we supposed to decide what is useful and what is not? What if someone finds more use for a weave than is obvious?

No perfect solution.

But, to a newbie, dumping them in the middle of 1,000 weaves and saying "pick what you like" isn't any help. If *we* have trouble picking popular or the most useful weaves, how is a newbie supposed to not be intimidated?

One of the best improvements to MAIL that was ever made in my opinion, was when Kim went through the weavebase and renamed a bunch of the simpler weaves to have symbols in front of them, to at least bump them to the front alphabetically. I think we could follow the same when showing off the weavebase.

The wiki would help with this greatly, as you'd perhaps browse more organically. A newbie could start off at Byzantine, and then end up following one link after another and seeing some pretty interesting and rarely-used Byz variants. That type of progression makes sense to me.

DL and I were talking a few months ago about methods to track weave popularity.. just as an interesting metric. Have people punch in an estimate of how many rings they've weaved in a particular weave. Then we could see what weaves were literally never used, which were popular and by how much, and so on. People could even use the stats to keep track of their own progress through the art. I'm a statistics junky, I like just having the data there for its own sake, you never know what interesting way you'll think of to play with it and present it.

Anyway, the search idea has merit, but I would like to see it used in conjunction with a good sort option.. and it could be cleaned up a bunch too.

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Posted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:19 pm
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Quote:
The wiki would help with this greatly, as you'd perhaps browse more organically. A newbie could start off at Byzantine, and then end up following one link after another and seeing some pretty interesting and rarely-used Byz variants. That type of progression makes sense to me.


This makes a lot of sense.


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Posted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:48 pm
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Would that be along the lines of Amazon’s ‘people who bought this also bought that’ list?


"Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
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Posted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:32 pm
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HerrBGone wrote:
Would that be along the lines of Amazon’s ‘people who bought this also bought that’ list?


No, not really. More, specifically what I described.

Heavy cross-linking.

Right now, if you want to find new-to-you weaves because you're interested, you have to go through the list alphabetically and by family. If you go by what Tess suggested, you have to fill in a search form.

Far more sense, is that when you read Byzantine, you see Byzantine variants. You can ignore them or pursue them. Maybe there's a Byz/Spiral variant you end up looking at. That weave would be related to both other Byz (back the way you came, sort of), or Spiral weaves. So maybe you'd end up in the Spiral family if that's what perked your interest. Or, maybe further mutations down the line.

It's an interest-based navigation based on where you already are, rather than a strict alphabetical list or search parameters.

Not based on user feedback or popularity, but based on, best we can figure it out, actual quantifiable elements.

One of the biggest changes with tagging, will be a single button that says "View images tagged by (weavename)". And blam, you can immediately see all the beautiful things people have done with that weave.

I'm of the opinion that there's a lot of variation in weaves that are simply things you do with that weave, not a new weave created. Right now, that data has nowhere to go *except* weaves. But if we can connect weaves to pictures, we can afford to be more strict with fewer negative consequences. That would make weave criteria less sloppy than it is now, and yet even more inclusive content-wise than we're able to right now.

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Posted on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:37 pm
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Cynake wrote:

I'm of the opinion that there's a lot of variation in weaves that are simply things you do with that weave, not a new weave created. Right now, that data has nowhere to go *except* weaves. But if we can connect weaves to pictures, we can afford to be more strict with fewer negative consequences. That would make weave criteria less sloppy than it is now, and yet even more inclusive content-wise than we're able to right now.


Oh please post this in the thread in Weaves Discussion 'issues with a new weave' or at least point people here. At the moment I just can't do anything right.


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Posted on Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:19 am
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Kim, you are beautiful man. You are a born agent of change.

My belief is that we've over classified these weaves in an artificial system, it might be the best we can do for now but it is inadequate.

I would like to see the weaves cross referenced and searchable by who developed the weave and/or(this is basically the same thing when you really think about it) if it is a historical weave. That's my only input really.


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Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:10 am
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i am a chao.

the cronological search is really important to me, also.. i have wished for this for years. YEARS. more than any other option at MAIL. more than a better organized weaves library.

i like the idea of tagging beginner, or useful, (or popular) weaves. maybe a vote on difficulty built into each weave?.. then allow a search by difficulty, giving the newbies a list of where to start, with pictures. or experienced maillers with a challenge list.

in my fantasy dreamland i still see a newbie page, full of lists of good weaves for beginners to learn first. ...and lollipops.

the only other thing i'd love to see is the ability to change the submitter in mymail... i believe articles allows this now. lorenzo, david austin and i (last time i looked) have a bunch of weaves attributed to us willy-nilly because of how we did the changeover to 2.0.

kim


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:25 am
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Yes, that bugs me every time I see it as well. Sometimes I don't even remember which ones are mine anymore. Not that it matters, I love my poor orphaned adopted weaves just as much as if they really were mine.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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