Oh dear...
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7026
Submissions: 294

Oh dear...
Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 8:24 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

.....this
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13403
could have been handled a lot better.

I've had a couple complaints about this thread being locked before the member had a chance to respond properly and more importantly to about how the admins responded to the first post. A little childish maybe?

Expect some PMs about this guys.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 2816
Submissions: 20
Location: Cambridge, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 9:55 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I...

I'm not sure how I feel about this...

On one hand, it may have become a useful discussion...
On the other hand, the OP had already shown willingness to lash out.

I'm not saying I support the sarcasm in the first few posts... But I'm also not saying that I might not have posted something similar myself... (If you can untangle those double negatives, we're good to go.)
Admins should be able to step in and out of the admin role, as needed... We're *ALL* users first. And if an Admin says something... 'Smartass', so long as they're not acting in an 'official' capacity, so be it... (imho)
We don't ask users to tiptoe around, and avoid humor...
We do ask users to avoid flaming, and I expect admins to avoid the same.



Going to the end... We, as admins and mods, have a duty to do things like locking posts that we see about to get out of hand. Cynake likely thought it was about to get out of hand.

Whether I agree with this or not, as Blaise had mentioned before... We should stand united.




On a related topic... It really bothers me to see Individual Users running to individual admins to complain about another admin... It's like playing favourites.
(Part of my disdain with this, is possibly that I see this happen in real life at my job... Certain people, have 'issues' with the way I handle things... And instead of talking with me about this, go over my head, which inevitably results in me getting pulled into my bosses office... Usually over something REALLY silly, but I digress...)

Users reading this please note: I'm not blaming you, but I would like you to feel you can approach ALL of us, as a cohesive whole with your problems. Or if you have a problem with a specific admin, you should feel you can approach them.

I understand people don't want to post things like this publically... But going to one admin about another is borderline dirty pool... I guess I'd like to see more like... Myself coming to the forum say, and posting 'Okay, so I recieved a complaint about how I handled this... *link*' and tabling it myself... I feel that would foster accountability rather than finger pointing.

Cynake can be... brash... But if you call him on something, he'll at least discuss it rationally with you.


I may be way off base here, but it's how I feel.

FIN

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7026
Submissions: 294

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 10:24 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I did suggest PMs should be sent to other admins not just me which is why I said 'expect some PMs'.

I can't stop members sending me PMs, we should all be open to complaints. Trouble is some admins are more approachable than others.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3212
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 12:06 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I too have been PM'ed regarding this. And it was an unfortunate situation. And I don't know if it can be fixed, per se. I will say that while the "bite me" post may have been mildly offensive, since it was not directed at a specific person, it didn't technically violate our content policy.

That said:

  1. I believe that locking or deleting threads that could *potentially* become a problem is ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. I'd hate to see our boards go the way of TRL's, where I get posts deleted every few months because "Someone might start an argument over it".
  2. Admins are free to say what they like, just like every other member, BUT it would certainly be helpful for the health of the community if they didn't pile on when the community is already fixing the problem.
  3. *That* said, I believe Phong's satirical post was the best response this sort of thing could have gotten, from an admin OR member. I'm surprised it didn't defuse the whole situation on its own! Those who got it giggled and moved on, and those that didn't went home happy...
  4. Light-handed adminning, folks. Most disagreements burn themselves out long before they really cause trouble.



"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 1:12 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hrm. Pretty sure it violates the user policy.

Maybe I have a different definition of "Bite Me", than others..

"Bite Me" = mildly less offensive version of "suck my dick" or "bite my ass", depending. AFAIK, it's origins/meaning isn't actually for someone to literally, innocently, nibble on them. I put it on par with telling someone to go screw themselves. Not quite as blatant as telling them to go F themselves, but, up there. It is sexual in nature, far as I know.

The first two portions I quoted and replied to were just something I would say normally, in response to someone who made the argument that putting effort into a post doesn't matter, since people were raising that debate ant it was topical. That part was in response to Clever Wench's comments.

I don't specifically condone poking a little fun at someone as a way of illustrating how they treated others.. but.. fun is fun. None of it was overly cruel or out of place, just a light teasing, so, members on both sides can act how they want and will be treated accordingly by their peers. I too giggled at what Phong wrote, and thought it good humored and appropriate. The thread starter could hardly take offense unless he has some strange disability, (which would be cruel to mock, but that wasn't the case), or even be upset at being treated that way in reply to him asking in kind.

To the members who seemed seriously upset at Phong's post.. ugg. I really gotta roll my eyes. People gotta lighten up.

The reason the thread was locked, was because of what I explained in the last couple paragraphs. The user didn't just disagree, or refuse to change. He got belligerent and said anyone who didn't like how he acted could bite him. "For those of you that don't like the way I type or puncuate BITE me !"

I think he did have a chance to respond, that *was* his response. And in my opinion, someone who's treating people that way or responding to light teasing or fair criticism in that manner, (not to mention the original manner, which was, though not against content policy, somewhat rude), shouldn't have their thread continued so I locked it and suggested if he wanted to start over with how he approached that, to do so. And I linked him the two relevant content policies/suggestions.

Though it may impair the defense of my actions, I didn't actually lock it because it might turn bad. I locked it because I thought it already was bad. The user was telling people off and I thought "Uhh, nope, don't get to use our forums if you're going to treat people that way, on top of being lazy and rude to begin with. Try again."

This isn't "Oh, you didn't use punctuation, you're a moron, I'm locking your thread."

Perhaps many of you consider the term he used less offensive than me. Would you have felt differently if he had said "For those of you that don't like the way I type or puncuate you can go screw yourselves!" ? Because that's about the same level of offensiveness I put it on. He could've said worse, but, I still thought it something requiring action and not to be tolerated.

[Edited to add - Rarely, if ever, does anyone actually complain to me. Most often it's a bit underhanded, to other admins, and then I have to fight this ghost of an accusation. I'm approachable people, really. I've had a couple people PM me things like "Oh, I just wanted to say I thought... ... but please don't ban me." And I'm like, huh? What? Why.. would I ban someone for sharing their opinion? Seriously, loosen up peoples. And I do read and address each and every bit of criticism that gets sent to me].

Joined: July 25, 2006
Posts: 956
Submissions: 3
Location: Klamath Falls, Or.

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 5:10 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

It's so hard to read inflection in forum posts....I took the "BITE ME", since he didn't go on and on as if mortally offended, I took it as a light, trying to be funny, retort to light sarcasm...he then posted a more grammatically correct post. He got it and moved on, like everyone else should have...some did.

Kodiak-


Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong". -H.L. Menken
"The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." -Dorothy Parker
Chaincraft Mandrels

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7026
Submissions: 294

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 8:43 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I just got this email from Jimbo

"dear legba,
If my typing habits irritate that many people pleaase remove my membership from mail ! I had 5 minutes to make that post. i will in future just go to other mail forums and ask the questions i need there good day"

Sad


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 1047
Submissions: 73

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 14, 2009 10:57 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hrm. While I intended my post to be merely snarky rather than outright insulting, I can't say I'm terribly displeased with how this has turned out. If someone can't be understandable, then gets belligerent when requested to be understandable, and then storms off in a huff, I say good riddance. I don't want to purposefully chase people off, but I realize the use of an occasional 'pruning'.

'More' doesn't equal 'better.' More members, more weaves, more whatever, while being all-encompassing, inevitably means there's chaff. There's no reason why the chaff needs to be kept, other than a misguided notion that everyone should get along with everyone and not say anything remotely confrontational. There's a difference between giving criticism and being a dick. If someone takes criticism poorly, then it doesn't matter which forum they're on, they're gonna get belligerent. For my own view, I don't see any particular need to keep those people around. I'd rather it be a smaller, healthier mailling community where people can have intelligent and respectful discourse than a huge, bloated one where the only comments can be 'Ooo pretty'. That doesn't help advance the art one bit.

Anyway, this got kinda off-topic. Jimbo, sorry I made fun of you and best of luck on the other maille boards.

-phong



Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri May 15, 2009 2:38 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Legba3 wrote:
"dear legba,
If my typing habits irritate that many people pleaase remove my membership from mail ! I had 5 minutes to make that post. i will in future just go to other mail forums and ask the questions i need there good day"


I don't understand. He's saying both that he acknowledges his posting habits are bad, by making excuses (though no excuse for telling people if they don't like it they can bite him), saying he only had 5 minutes. But meanwhile, saying there was nothing wrong with his posting and if people think he should attempt to post legibly, he's just going to pout and stomp off. I'm not sure which it is.

I also don't like either the attitude or reasoning behind his excuse. He was asking *other people* for help, asking them to take *their* time out of *their* days for *his* benefit, but he can't be bothered to take time out of his own day to be legible. Also, how much time did he save by skipping punctuation? 1-second?

Tiny issue he is trying to inflate so people feel sorry for him. He chose to be belligerent in his response, I locked his thread in accordance with a couple issues on our content policy. He is welcome here. He can even continue posting similar garbage if he wants, and can probably expect to receive the same few answers to his inquiries and deluges of people asking him to have enough respect for them to put a touch of effort into his post. But telling people if they don't like it they can perform oral sex on him, isn't cool in my books.

If we'd like to make that appropriate here, by all means, lets open that up for discussion. Who is in favor of this being acceptable conduct?

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7026
Submissions: 294

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri May 15, 2009 9:47 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I'm just passing on the message I received which Is what I thought I'm supposed to do in these situations.

IMPO, no I don't think it's acceptable but I don't think admins poking fun is acceptable either. *shurg*


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3212
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri May 15, 2009 1:44 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Cynake wrote:
......telling people if they don't like it they can perform oral sex on him, isn't cool in my books.

If we'd like to make that appropriate here, by all means, lets open that up for discussion. Who is in favor of this being acceptable conduct?


Come on now, I'm the first to jump on the "fix your English" bandwagon, but do you really, truly believe that "Bite Me" is specifically intended as a command to perform oral sex? Even if you are right as to the etymology of the term, which I'm not 100% sure I agree with in the first place, does anyone really intend it that way, or interpret it that way, in general usage?

I use the term regularly, and have never even once intended for it to be an oral sex reference. Whatever its source, it's become a common vernacular synonym for "go away and leave me alone". Not even a particularly harsh one, at that.

As for what's appropriate language by policy, our policy model is cut whole-cloth from the US FCC rules on indecency and obscenity. I hear the term "Bite Me" on American television weekly, so I must assume there's no violation there....


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 21, 2009 7:02 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

what method can we put in place to make sure that admins don't lock threads based on personal whimsy? if an admin makes a move which is generally accepted as debatable, we have to stand behind it, united as a group? sorry, no dice here. my opinion isn't for sale. my position here is 'mouth' not the mouth of mail, per se.. but the mouth of me.

thread locking has been an issue more than once.

perhaps a system in which a first admin says, "lock suggested" after a cited quote.. a second admin agreeing with this can lock it. saying "lock suggested", might get folks to pay closer attention to their posts in that thread.

might reduce the instances of this debate coming up.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 2816
Submissions: 20
Location: Cambridge, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 21, 2009 8:23 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

While there is that option...

If there's one thing I've noticed in my tenure here thus far, it's that no-one here can agree on anything 100%...
Also, you will get at least one person to agree with you, no matter how radical your view.
Law of averages.


There's also the option to pull regular admins off the Moderator patrol...
Empower a few well-known careful/impartial folk with Moderator duties.
But then you end up with more admins whos only job is to patrol the forum... It might put and end to these misunderstandings, however...


That second suggestion is likely about as popular as an apendectomy for fun...


I don't know...

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3212
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu May 21, 2009 3:26 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I don't believe that we should *ever* restrict our board-members actions. Much like my feelings about the posts in the first place, I'd rather let things go as they will, and intervene *only* if there's a problem, as I believe there was here. Preemptive action never goes over well with anyone, and can often lead to unintended consequences.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri May 22, 2009 3:35 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

i don't think i can mod anything.. at one point i was able.
i don't particularly miss it.

i wouldn't mind a specific moderator patrol. didn't we have that originally? we had mods and admins. some people did both. all were BOD members.

at least this is the way i understood it. having moderator abilities didn't explicitly indicate moderator.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2. Goto page 1, 2  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:39 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
Display posts from previous: