butted armor Hauberk wire
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
   
Author Message

Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 1
Submissions: 0
Location: england

butted armor Hauberk wire
Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:03 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

hi ive been wanting to make a hauberk for a while now and finaly got some wire but problem is i dont think its correct for my armor,
i want the peice to be good for light armor upto moderate abuse from potentialy "sharp" items. so no larp standards of "armor"
i also want it to be everyday sort of ware (show off to different people) so not overly heavy i do expect to ware it once a week min for atleast 3 month
have a a coiling jig with a 1/4 mandrel already i got made by someone
the wire i ordered came as 1mm galvinaised steel.
would this combination work for my requirements?
if not what type of wire whould i get to make my butted maile hauberk?

Joined: July 25, 2008
Posts: 787
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:29 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

If you want strong and light you want rivited or welded and something besides galvy. punching and welding require heat and the zinc fumes are not good for you.
With 1mm wire you may want a mandrel around 4-5mm.
I'm working on an avaintail now that's 1.6mm wire and 1/4" ID rings.
It will be used for sca combat with rattan battons.

That "potentialy sharp items" concerns me. Butted does not holdup will to trusts or stabbing attracts and does little for blunt force trauma.

Joined: November 25, 2010
Posts: 1256
Submissions: 84
Location: Es-whoy-malth B.C.

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:07 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

i don't know if i would commit to making a whole shirt with 1mm galvy wire. galvy just isn't a very nice wire to commit that much time to. i don't know iif i would abuse maille either, it doesnt sound very respectful of all that hard work.

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3151
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:49 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Welcome and well come.

To sum up, butted-link mail is serviceable for LARPer foamies and Creative Anachronist rattan sticks, and will grow the occasional hole.

The Creative Anachronists habitually use 1.6mm wire @ 1/4 inch mandrel, or 2mm+ around a 3/8" mandrel in butted. They found that a link Aspect Ratio (AR) of about AR4 to AR6 made mail of a good balance of weight, relative speed of making (eh he he) and durability.

AR is why we've mentioned mandrels of 4-5mm instead of the 6.35mm one you've got -- which as I said is just fine for 1.6mm wire. Thin wire is more sensitive to pushing things to larger-AR butted links than thick wire is; in other words, 14 gauge/2.2mm wire does better at not getting holes in it, from links bending open, at or near link AR6 than 1.6mm.
_____________________

If you'd gotten 1mm wire ungalvanized, then you could have made a durable shirt indeed. With four times the manhours working, too -- a looong job ahead, but your shirt would have stopped knives. It is possible to chemically strip the galvanization off, either using two or three gallons of distilled vinegar in a bucket and taking most of a warm day, or using swimming pool acid (that's HCl) cut at least 1 to 1 with cold water (safety: pour acid solution into water, never the water into the acid; as the two mix they put out quite a lot of heat for a bit until they settle down) for a slower, better controllable reaction, but taking, what? An hour?

Zinc reacts faster with acid than steel. HCl will make lots of bigger bubbles of hydrogen reacting the zinc. When the bubbles go small and fewer, the zinc has been stripped off and the acid's working on the steel. Pull the stripped wire out, plop it into a bath of very strong baking soda to neutralize, then rinse with water and dry off quickly, for the wire is extremely prone to rust now.

Now you're ready to do all the conventional process for riveted mail, right down to heating the stripped-wire links to red after overlapping, giving them a crude anneal. That's necessary to keep from breaking your piercing drifts when you make the rivet holes.

The suite of tools even for riveted mail is a small, simple, inexpensive one. One item will have to be a modification of something else; there are no modern mailmakers' setting pliers. No one seems to have preserved any old ones from centuries back.

The result would be when everything is done a light and sturdy shirt with a fine, smooth texture from its small links, well worth the bragging about. It would be half the weight of a shirt in 2mm+, and you can squeeze the weight down a bit lighter yet if you're willing to buy spacer rings of similar ID and OD to your wire links -- so 6.35mm ID with 8.35mm OD by less than 1mm of thickness, where the weight saving really comes in -- work inside that envelope of maximum dimensions. I'd leave the ID pretty much untouched, perhaps reduce the OD slightly, and take the thickness to perhaps 0.75mm.

Such punched-out spacer rings, in steel, can make up half your shirt and cut your weaving time in about half what an all-riveted mailshirt would be.

Resistance welding is also possible, again with non-galvanized wire: zinc coatings make a fumey mess of the situation that is bad for your lungs. Has to be bare wire. In fact, it's the preferred method for fastening stainless links because stainless wire doesn't anneal quite soft enough to use the conventional method of riveting. Welders cost considerably more than the tools for riveted -- and produce links rather stronger even than good riveted, though the difference isn't all that great if the riveted closure is up to snuff.
___________________

Let's also make certain we're all on the same page about what sort of shirt you're making really -- how good you are at mailshirt taxonomy, you might say! A byrnie is a short, vestlike, shortsleeved or sleeveless mail shirt that hardly comes down lower than your jeans pockets. (Don't let a mailshirt hem hang to your nuts. You will regret it immediately you begin to walk. Mail has inertia!) A haburgeon is short- to half-sleeved and comes to mid thigh -- kind of a generic shirt, and a VERY nice application for fine-wire links indeed. (Is this what you envision?) A hauberk goes to your knees with substantial skirts, big as a mac, and is Norman Conquest or Crusader stuff. In your link size, I think we're looking at you weaving 75K-85K links for an entire hauberk -- as I said, a long job. It evolved over its three-plus centuries: Conquest-era 'berks had half sleeves, but when 'berks faded and were replaced by haburgeons in the fourteenth century, they had grown long sleeves tipped with integral, leather-palmed mittens, and integral coifs, armoring the fighting aristocrat from kneecaps to bald spot in one single piece of equipment. They never equaled that record before nor since.

You may be discouraged with that wire by now -- how much of it did you get?? But don't be -- for one thing that's an accurate historical wire diameter and link ID too, for another there are things other than shirts you can (sanely, wrt time spent) use it for -- bits for under plate armor, or with it: voiders for armpits, faulds at the hips, brayettes-de-mailles under even a fauld, camails for XIV-century bascinet armours -- they don't usually get this fine. You can craft belts of it more modernly in, say E6-1 or 8-1 -- pretty even in galvy, which is quite humble wire very suited for armor applications like you're after. They'll be rather heavy as belts go.

So what to do if you modify your plan? Try getting 1.6mm wire or right close thereabouts, and stay with the quarter inch mandrel. If you want to rivet and can find ungalvanized wire to do it with, you don't need to be too rigid about your max AR if you'd like it to be lightweight, which allows you to easily expand link ID to 5/16" or larger. Allows your shirt to go together quicker. It'll feel a bit coarser under your hand. 1/4 to 5/16 inch was about the most common diameter range for historical mail links. Some bigger, a few smaller. Multiple link diameters in one shirt were not unheard of, for weight saving and a tailoring effect.

The best mailshirt tute the Net can boast is your countryman Trevor Barker's gift to the maillers' world http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm -- copies a longsleeved XV century German, likely infantry, shirt. Covers you like a sweater.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 473
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:42 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Let's put it this way: I have a 12 gauge hauberk with an inner diameter of, on average, 1/4". This is thick enough that if I am careful, I can stand the shirt up by itself. It will not stop a knife--we tested it. Anything that isn't thick enough to make it essentially a breastplate anyway has no chance of stopping a knife, unless it is welded/riveted (and even then, it will hurt a LOT to be hit--being stabbed is one of my definitions of "not a good day").

Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 159
Submissions: 0
Location: Athens, GR

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:25 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I smell "friendly homicide" in the air... Rolling Eyes


Guys, keep in mind that medieval armour was RIVETED, SOLID or forge WELDED, or a mix of all those, and was not worn over bare skin or over a t-shirt.
A Gambeson, made of many layers of fabric(like modern kevlar vest), was worn under the armour.

This was enough armour by itself for minor hits (what you would expect from street thugs, minor bar fights, etc), and also helped the energy from heavy hits on the maille to expand over a large area and prevent organ damage, in the same way Boxers have their hands covered in gauze to protect their fingers. It was also good at stopping arrows and bolts that made it through the maille.

Gambesons were worn even under plate armour, with maille patches sutured on the areas where the gaps of the armour would be (thus the name "Armoured Jacket").

Keep in mind. First truly full plate armour was produced at the royal armories of Henry the VIII at Greenwich, during the end of the twilight of the middle ages, or after the end of middle ages, depending on which event you accept as the end of middle ages. This armour was mostly ceremonial, so probably no actual Gambeson was worn under it. Probably something lighter to prevent plates from grinding the skin, but even this armour would require a Gambeson in combat.



WARNING !!! DANGER !!!

DO NOT hit any human or animal wearing butted maille armour with any Bladed or pointy weapons or "weapons".

Go buy a dead pig and test on that instead, like the Mythbusters do. They are professional, so they know something.

You may get SERIOUS INJURY that might result to DEATH while the armour is still not penetrated. You can also break bones and the armour will be intact.

I know that I sound like a Nanny State protectionist, but I am not.
Having your friends trying to stab you sound cool. I would like to do that, but I would wear my armour and Gambeson and also provide the "weapons" which would be mostly knives, because other stuff might f*** you up bad even with armour, like a wood splitting axe for example.

This is still very risky but I do understand the risks and I am taking them willingly under controlled circumstances for the sake of history, science and fun.

Make sure you understand all that before doing science, alright?


Oh, and one more thing. Chainmaille is NOT bulletproof!
Do not even try to fire airgun pellets at someone wearing it!!!

Joined: November 25, 2010
Posts: 1256
Submissions: 84
Location: Es-whoy-malth B.C.

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:24 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

chainmaille has excellent slash resistance even butted. as long as the ar is under 5 or so. like i've put on chain shirts with buddies before and slashed at eachothers bellies with kitchen knives if you want to demonstrate it's effectiveness and are playing this game with people you would trust with a knife in their hand. poking at maille is ill advised since it pulls rings apart easily. if someone asks you to make them a stab proof vest they can wear under their hoodie just tell them it can't be done and an unsafe idea.

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 473
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:07 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Spartan1388, do you bother to read posts before running your mouth? Because the evidence suggests otherwise. If you would be so kinfpgs as to read the posts after the OP, you would see that we adives STRONGLY against using butted maille in the way the OP wishes.

As for testing this maille, just do what I did: make a small-ish sheet (like, a foot square), hold it out, and have your friend stab it/shot it/throw fireballs at it (college was a fun time Very Happy). Then ask yourself "Do I want that to happen to me?" I know it's not an accurate test, but it's close enough. When my friend shot my maille (remember, this stuff was nearly rigid) with a CO2 pellet gun and broke four links I told him that if I saw him point the gun at anyone I would kill him myself, and he agrees that such an action would be appropriate (you would have to have been there; it was extremely cordial and friendly). My point is, IT BROKE FOUR LINKS--not opened, but shattered. Further testing, even we the gambison and whatnot, would have been irrelevant; the important bit was that I would have not wanted to have that happen to me, even with the armor. Same with he fireball (lighter fluid and a lighter). Same with the knife (went through fairly easily, but ruined the edge). Unless the maille stops the force, you will still be injured, just in a slightly different manner. It would still suck to be you, so don't let it be you. Maille DOES stop slicing force, by absorbing it, because slicing does not penetrate metal. But it does nothing against stabs, even at the lowest AT you can use for armor.

Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 159
Submissions: 0
Location: Athens, GR

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:54 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Guys, I don't speak to you guys. I speak to the "guys" from the internet and the OP.
Why would I ever advise you? You are either professionals or very experienced amateur hobbyist so "you" don't need my advise. The people that might try such things do need my 2 cents.


Don't know about how guys act in your countries, but here, it is a reasonable assumption that someone will try to STAB as hard as he can or even use a "weapon" that you have not test it against your maille, like an axe. A slash from an axe can f-word you really bad. Same goes for baseball bats and other non-bladed weapons, specially without a Gambeson.

Friends cannot always be trusted. You can tell them only to slash with the designated weapons, but the other guy can get the idea to stab, and do so, as fast as you can snap your fingers, even tho you have tell him not to.
Not everyone can understand the "experiment" thing or the "maille science" thing.

The whole situation can escalate quickly, because people might even see it as a challenge and they will try to "prove" their strength, and also try to make you pain because you will look "invulnerable" without your armour on.

Put some alcohol there and things can escalate faster. So no very good idea for a party to play it maille-piniata...

Butted maille will probably fail stabs, and your organs and bones can get damaged without the maille failing.
Real Knights were training for years. Their bones were denser and stronger than the today's average person, but their bones could still break easily.


As for the airgun, I do not think it would destroy soft steel like galvy (assuming you use average everyday lead pellets), if the aspect ratio is low enough, but the pellet might just pass through unless the AR is ludicrously low.

I do have an airgun (it is legal here), but I am not legally allowed to use it in home or anywhere else except at a shooting range, and I need to get an Athlete's ID for that, as well as permit, and the range is not going to allow it anyway. XD

Testing a maille patch is not accurate. Pig + Gambeson + Full maille armour (or at least a big batch) would be a far better (and expensive) test.


As for the stabbing. I tested 2x2 units patch with a big chef's knife.
The knife needs re-profiling so my mother did not mind if i ruin the edge. Coif LoL

The maille was on a napkin, on a wooden cutting surface, on the floor. Worst thing that happened, was that after 5 stabs, 2 rings got 2mm open and 3 rings got 1mm open. This was 2,2mm galvy wire, 8mm ID. I stabbed holding the knife with two hands. Either I suck, or my test was ludicrously flawed. Coif LoL

I agree that it sucks to get any stabs at all. This is why people used shields, but in case you do get stub, a Gambeson will help a bit. The Gambeson and your body (assuming you have some muscle and or fat) will be pushed inside, causing the projectile or blade to push more rings. Also, pray that no rings fail...


For defeating maille, people had small needle or obelisk like "daggers". These and warhammers can kill any armoured fella quickly and are easy to make.
A knife is designed to cut soft things. No good for punching through armour.

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 473
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:07 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I still suggest you alter your diction. As it stands "guys" most reasonably means those of us who have posted in this thread. I say this not as an attack but as constructive criticism. Your posting style is rather abrasive, which gets in the way of your message. The fact that you continue to mostly ignore the lion's share of my posts merely exacerbates this condition.

As for the air gun, I simply don't care if you believe me or not--that's what happened. Four links broke. Doubt it if you will, but that is the fact of the matter. To be honest, though, it is irrelevant. The fact remains that it did enough damage that I was unwilling to allow him to perform the test on me while wearing the maille. I am no coward; I have the scars to prove it. If even I am willing to say "This is a bad idea" it is something no sane person should do, and that was my point--if the test performed without putting yourself at risk and at the earliest opportunity results in you being unwilling to test it out on your own flesh, the results are, for all practical purposes, conclusive. test first against the maille alone; if the results a scare you, you need not test further. And trust me, they WILL scare you!

Let me put it another way: one should test early and often. If early tests make you second guess testing it on yourself, that in and of itself is a conclusive result.

As for accuracy, to Hell with that. Close enough is too close for comfort. I know that that air gun would damage me to the point of ending up in the ER from the test I did, and that was enough . Again, if the test against maille alone scares you, you need not test further--you will not withstand the assault, regardless of what else you have under it, so the results are conclusive enough. Your argument is akin to saying that radiometric dates are not accurate because of the large error bars. Sure, they are plus or minus a half-million years, but at the billion-plus scale it is irrelevant. Sure, the test over-estimates the damage a bit--but at the point where your armor becomes shrapnel embedded in your squishy flesh, it really doesn't matter if it is one piece or five. You're not going to keep standing, much less fighting, end off discussion.

As for stab wounds: I have been stabbed twice. The worst part is the "I have been stabbed" reaction. A gambison will not help. It will help a little, regarding the wound, but in a real combat situation the first wound is only the first of your problems. That half-second it takes you to recover is an eternity to the other guy, and he likely will stab you three or four more times before you react. There is a reason the Romans emphasized stabs--they are lightning fast and effectively shut the opponent down. Even if they do not penetrate, few today can take a stab without locking up; we simply have no training for it. In combat, this equals death, even if the gambison somehow stops the blade the first time (remember, the other guy is GOING to keep stabbing you!). Combat isn't pretty. And most people, regardless of what they say, will fold the first time their blood is drawn. I mean no offense here; I think it one of the greatest compliments of our society that we are not accustomed to bloodshed. However, it is a simple fact that most of us will not survive the first strike, even if it does no real physiological harm. Failure to acknowledge that is death on the field of battle.

Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 159
Submissions: 0
Location: Athens, GR

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:12 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Some things I simply have no way of knowing, because I never lived in every place of English speaking countries.
"Guys" in Greece is very general. Not really specific.

Of course I am "aggressive" with my arguments! In Greece you have to be "aggressive" with your opinions. You can also play it "Mr. Vulcan" but unless you have the status and some degrees to back you, you might be seen as laughingstock, so you use "passion" instead.

This does not mean that I insist on anything. This is how I normally present my arguments. If a better argument is presented, I will examine with as much objectivity as possible and I will either support my argument or accept the counter-argument.


The airgun for example.

There are hunting airguns that are quite powerful that can be used to hunt deer and boar. We do hunt with these here because rifled rifles are illegal.
Hunting airgun and steel pellet is one thing. "Toy" practice airgun with lead pellet is another.
When I was an athlete (permit is for 1 year so I am not athlete anymore), I used a pistol airgun from the range. This was more powerful than some air-rifles. Logical, because these pistols would sell for like 1.000 today's money (pistols were made at middle 60's), while you can get rifles for like 100.

The shooting range had like 4 inch thick Styrofoam (the heavy duty kind) shielding in the walls you where shooting at. Neither sport pistols or rifles made it through in the first shot. Holes were made at spots where many shots landed on each other. I saw these shielding from very closed when it was removed, which happens every few years.

The target holders and retrieving apparatus was steel, no more than 2mm thick. All these stuff were old and still in good shape, even tough they survived thousands of direct hits.

So, without knowing what gun you used and how powerful it is, what pellet, and what distance was shot from, this test is invalid to be used as evidence.
I suspect hunting air-rifle and steel pellet.

Ones biggest concern should be that pellets can pass through the rings without even opening them a bit. .117 inch or 4,7mm pellets are quite small.



Anyway, if my presence in these forums is really that unbearable, I will deliver you from it and request my account to be deleted.
I do not like to wear a "mask" and neither I like ruining your forum-ing.

Joined: November 25, 2010
Posts: 1256
Submissions: 84
Location: Es-whoy-malth B.C.

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:53 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

don't feel too bad spartan. maybe dinwar just isnt a fan of mythbusters. Cutters

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 473
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:45 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

djgm wrote:
don't feel too bad spartan. maybe dinwar just isnt a fan of mythbusters. Cutters


I am enough of a fan. I simply believe the expense to be excessive (a common complaint I have about Spartan's advice). Sufficient testing can be performed without shelling out the cash for a pig. If you stab a piece of maille and think "That looks like it would hurt", you have prove with sufficient accuracy hat doing so with you inside it would not be a good idea. It's quick, relatively cheap, and close enough for government work.

I will be the first to acknowledge that if one wishes to test fully 100% authentic armor! one should do it in a fully 100% authentic manner. My point is more on the practical side--I honestly believe that were some initial testing done as soon as enough maille had been woven to allow for such testing, anyone with enough brain cells to form a synaps would reconsider actually using the stuff. We don't need to prove this to fifty decimal places; simply showing that even a blow stopped by maille would result in an ER visit is sufficient.

Not sure how much YouTube folks here watch, but there is a group called Extra Credits that has a video titled "Fail Faster", in which they extols the virtues of testing an idea as early as possible. At is all I am driving at here. You want to use maille in real combat? Cool--make a patch and test it as soon as you have enough to make a decent test. If you realize it would suck to be hit despite the armor, and spend the next hour fixing the damage like I did, you will not need to experiment further.

As for aggression, if that is how they do it inGreece, fair enough. However, in the United States, there is an expectation that one will frame ones arguments in such a way as to not drive away one's audience, and an aggressive stance from the onset is often viewed as an attack--pretty much ensuring that your point will not be heard. Simply put, we are al, if not friends, at least friendly here. Still, I am willing to chalk it up to cultural differences.

Joined: November 25, 2010
Posts: 1256
Submissions: 84
Location: Es-whoy-malth B.C.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:52 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

i agree i would rather eat the pig than cover it in armor and hack at it with a sword. im more into maille for show so don't test it to the point where i think it might break. there is just no reason in my daily life to stab anything other than the last spud with a fork so even the thought of stabbing at a scrap of maille of a block of foam seems unsafe to me.

Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 159
Submissions: 0
Location: Athens, GR

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:05 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Pig is the closest equivalent to a human.

In feudal Japan Samurais would conduct experiments on the bodies of executed prisoners, but for us today this would be a little... well... it is most probably illegal unless you are a medical examiner of forensic scientist and someone has formally donated their body for this purpose.

So we have to use dead animals instead.

A cow is also close to human, as well as mice, but these animals are not the right size, muscle mass, skin size, bone size and density, etc. Although they are good for testing medications and such stuff, they are not good for testing armour.

Pigs have a little tougher skin than humans and are great for people training in suturing, injections, etc, like medical students, nursing students, medics, etc to learn on.
The adult pig's body is about as big as an average human, as well as its muscle mass and bones. Not 100% human equivalent, but close enough.
If something would kill a pig, it would most certainly kill a human or at least cause serious injury.

You can cook the pork after you done with the experiment. Anything you can not eat you can freeze to cook and eat later or you can donate the meat, so no perfectly good food will get wasted.


An Experiment can only take place in a controlled environment, with all variables being known and or being able to be controlled. For example, gravity cannot be controlled, but it is known (1G for Earth) while on the other hand, wind can be manipulated and its speed and direction can be measured if necessary. Otherwise the "Experiment" is not valid.
My "experiments" for example are nothing like valid for the reasons mentioned above.


Stabbing maille as hard as you can may generate enough force to make enough rings snap or even cause internal damage to a human with or without the armour failing but putting everything you got behind a blow is not a viable tactic, because you will be easily exhausted.

In am Medieval battlefield, or even in a Roman one, you are already pretty much tired at the time you are that close to the enemy. At that distance, you can easily aim for weak spots.
Why take the chance of stabbing them at their torso while you can stab them in their face or any other weak spot?
A torso stab can be blocked with weapon or shield, or the enemy might dodge it, or you might miss. Keeping your eyes fixated on the torso of the enemy is probably not a good idea. If you put everything you have behind a blow, you will not be able to do it a second time with the same force and you will be easily exhausted. Guess what. Not break, no towel, no water, no sandwich while in battle!

Is not different than martial arts.
Make the enemy tire himself. Keep your strength and strike when you have the most chances of hitting them while they have the less chances of blocking, and aim for a vital spot.
You can exchange "fake" blows of course, to harass them or test them, but you are not going to hit them with everything you got.

If the enemy wears a full face helmet, just deliver a few blows at their helmet. This will confuse them, make them dizzy or might even make them faint and you might be able to capture them and then ask ransom money $$$ . (Money is always better than a corpse!)


Furthermore, why on earth would anyone try to stab someone wearing steel armour with a bladed weapon unless of course it is specially designed to penetrate armour (like the little daggers designed to snap one ring and then skewer a human)?
Imagine that. Your enemy is in 30Kgs of armour, weapons and gear. You wear the same. He can dodge and you can do that too. Both of you have longswords. Your helmets make it difficult to breath.
Clearly, the first to get exhausted is the loser and aiming for anything other than the weak spots is not going to work.

There are pictures from manuals depicting Knights in this situation. Knights are depicted with no shields and holding their longswords with two hands, more like a short spear to help them penetrate weak spots because two hands are better than one hand for reasons of force, control and fatigue.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2. Goto page 1, 2  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:27 am
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
Display posts from previous: