Ring size of sterling silver compared to bright aluminum,SOS
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Ring size of sterling silver compared to bright aluminum,SOS
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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:54 am
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Hi all. I am planing on ordering some sterling silver to make a byzantine wedding necklace. I desided to try out my idea in aluminum rings of the same size (19swg, 1/8"). it turned out that the byz wings in each unit just over lap eachother. I didn't like this, so i made a new section in 19swg 9/64" BA rings, witch is now too floppy.

I am woundering if sterling silver rings are slightly larger or smaller then the same size rings in Aluminum. I bought my BA from Theringlord, and i plan to buy sterling rings from them as well.


~Bigtitann

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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:46 am
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Well in that case why don't you email them and ask them to take some calipers and find the actual dimensions? There is no way we can help you here. Thats a customer service issue for TRL.

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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:38 pm
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The Ring Lord rings description includes actual ID and AR, that should help you. I know silver rings have a slightly higher AR for same ID than bronze rings and copper rings. I think for bright aluminium it is the same but I do not use it very often, better have a control.

For byzantine I use 20 gauge 7/64 rings (AR 3.5), I find they fit the best (even in silver).


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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:49 pm || Last edited by lorraine on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maybe I can be a little more helpful than Wanderling's non-answer...

If you go TRL's ring pages and look up the rings sizes you want to buy, they list wire diameter (WD), inner diameter (ID) and aspect ratio (AR). So go to the page with the BA rings you used and look at those numbers. Then go to the sterling ring page and compare sizes to get as close as you can to what you want.

TRL lists saw cut (you should always compare saw cut to saw cut) 19g, 1/8" BA rings as having an ID of 3.25and an AR of 3.2. They list saw cut sterling 19g 1/8" sterling rings as having an ID of 3.28 and an AR of 3.3. So the sterling rings in the same WD are a little larger than in BA. Sounds like they would work if the BA sample was a little small and the sides overlapped.

(Edit: apparently I can't read today.)


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:58 pm
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Well, BA and Sterling don't differ so much in springback, that this was the real culprit. It's only a simple fact, that 1.0mm (19swg), accompanied with mandrels in 1/64" stepping doesn't result in optimal Byzantine ARs, for both materials. The 1/8" will result in too low (AR~3.3), the 9/64" already a bit too high AR (~3.7 to 3.Uber, to behave REALLY well. It's a pity, that there's not the possibility to get ready-cut 19swg-17/128" rings there, that would have the 'magic' AR of exactly 3.5 - so we should look out for possibilities.

I'll list some:
a) Get both ring sizes (1/8" and 9/64"), use the smaller rings for the cages, and the larger ones for connectors.
b) Look for an alternative weave, or variation of the given, selected weave (e.g. single or triple connectors instead of standard paired), that can be made with available rings.
c) Look for another ring provider that serves you with exactly AR 3.5 rings of your wished material thickness, irrespective which mandrel diameter the provider would need to use for making them (probably a costly affair due to BTO manufacturing fee).
d) Chose another wire diameter, that can reach the 'sweet spot' AR with a given available mandrel.
e) Make your own rings, after getting materials, a huge set of fine stepped mandrels, and tools for making them (probably a high start investment, but may pay off in the future).

There may be some further possibilities (surely are), but I just happen to have forgot about. Smile

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:25 pm
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Oh, and TRL's 18swg, 5/32" sterling has a perfect 3.5 AR for 2 connector Byzantine.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:32 pm
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Thanks everyone for the help!

Ive pretty much set myself on 19swg sterling, because i wanted the look to be big, but not so big that its heavy on the neck and cost too much to make.

ZiLi, I have TRL's AR charts plastered all over my room so i can look for ring sizes, and i keep looking between 1/8" & 9/64", wishing TRL made rings in 17/128".
Quote:
a) Get both ring sizes (1/8" and 9/64"), use the smaller rings for the cages, and the larger ones for connectors.

This is pretty much what I've been thinking I'll have to do. I thought about making my own rings (bought 128s rods last time), but I apparently can cut rings straight. And I really dont want to get my practice on sterling!

The pattern I'm going to make is going to be 2 units of byz, then a set of large rings for connectors. I'm woundering if sterling is stronger then BA. I'm a bit worried about that part. The sad part, Is TRL skips 13/64" in 19swg sterling. Witch I tried 7/32" 19swg BA, was a bit weak. And 3/16" doesnt quite give the look of different in size then the byz units. Sad



Any other suggestions welcome! =)

~Bigtitann

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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:00 pm
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BigTitann wrote:
I'm woundering if sterling is stronger then BA. I'm a bit worried about that part.

You should be fine. TRL's sterling is strong. Just remind her it's special wedding jewelry and not to let anyone yank on it. But I have a sterling Byzantine necklace in tiny 20awg rings with beads between the sections. I've never had a problem with it.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Joined: August 18, 2008
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Posted on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:06 pm
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lorraine wrote:
BigTitann wrote:
I'm woundering if sterling is stronger then BA. I'm a bit worried about that part.

You should be fine. TRL's sterling is strong. Just remind her it's special wedding jewelry and not to let anyone yank on it. But I have a sterling Byzantine necklace in tiny 20awg rings with beads between the sections. I've never had a problem with it.


Your saying tiny 20awg rings..... does that mean low AR, or you just think 20ga is tiny? LOL.
I have a 20awg Sterling JPL3 necklace I've not taken off in months, and its strong because of its low AR. =P

I was thinking I could also use 18swg 7/32" sterling rings for the large connectors, do you think it would fit, and look good?



~Bigtitann

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:06 am
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BigTitann wrote:
lorraine wrote:
BigTitann wrote:
I'm woundering if sterling is stronger then BA. I'm a bit worried about that part.

You should be fine. TRL's sterling is strong. Just remind her it's special wedding jewelry and not to let anyone yank on it. But I have a sterling Byzantine necklace in tiny 20awg rings with beads between the sections. I've never had a problem with it.


Your saying tiny 20awg rings..... does that mean low AR, or you just think 20ga is tiny? LOL.
I have a 20awg Sterling JPL3 necklace I've not taken off in months, and its strong because of its low AR. =P

Bigtitann, you asked about the strength of sterling. The AR for a Byzantine chain would be the same whether it is made of 18swg, 20awg, or ANY wire diameter... So no, I'm not talking about a lower AR. The AR is the same. I'm saying that if a Byzantine chain made with rings made of thinner wire (therefore a little weaker) like my 20awg necklace can stand up to wear and tear, then you should be fine with a Byzantine necklace made with thicker (therefore a little stronger) 19swg wire.

Also, part of the reason your JPL necklace is strong is because it is a 4 in 1 weaves. The more rings you have going through each ring, the stronger a weave generally is. It spreads the stress among the rings.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:53 am
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I may second lorraine in that regard - weave-inherent strength of a weave is the combination of AR and redundancy. The used wire diameters, and also the used material parameters are only simple linear factors for strength.

So for both JPL, as well as double-ring connected Byzantine there must break at least two load sharing rings, before the chain breaks; and both are low-AR weaves. This makes them attractive for strong, or even abused chains. So even the good old 2in1 chain continues to be popular in jewellery, as it's an extra low-AR weave, and so strong even without redundancy.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 16, 2012
Posts: 4
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Location: Massachusetts

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Posted on Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:19 am
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I use fine silver rings from TRL and have never had a strength problem.

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Posted on Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:45 am
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winding your own rings is the best way to always have the perfect AR. well, that and a complete mandrel set.

as to weave strength, the thing to watch out for in byz is the connector rings.. don't let the closures line up, this creates a weak spot in the chain. spend the time to rotate the parallel connectors so that the closures are not next to each other. to test this, pull on a section of aluminum byz until you get some rings starting to "C" out.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:18 am
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Um. Well now that's an interesting suggestion Chao...but how does one keep the connectors' seams from lining up after it is woven? What I mean is that even if they don't line up when they're woven, mine tend to just turn as they will as I'm wearing it...they don't always stay in the same place.

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Posted on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:15 am
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proper AR selection. a good byz stays put.. a loose byz flops around... much like a life partner. did i just break a rule?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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